Author Topic: FW190 Tactics vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter  (Read 5396 times)

Offline fluffy

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FW190 Tactics vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« on: June 22, 2004, 09:50:06 AM »
I thought that you all might enjoy reading an excerpt from 'Black Crosses Off My Wingtip', the war memoirs of Dr. Irving F. Kennedy,DFC (RCAF, retired), of Cumberland Ontario. These excerpts describe an encounter he had while a member of 93 Squadron, RAF patroling the Salerno Beach area in the summer of '43. He spotted and pursued  3 radial engined FW190 jabos which had just bombed shipping in the vicinity of Salerno Beach.
Through a misunderstanding he was alone after pursuing the FWs for about 50 miles.

"I knew that the Focke-Wulf 190 was an excellent aircraft of approximately the same performance as a Spitfire IX, but with different characteristics. It could not turn as tightly nor climb as quickly, both of which were expressions of lift. But it could dive and zoom, flick-roll and short flick-turn more rapidly than a Spitfire. In this it resembled an Me 109, but it had more power than the Messerschmitt. I preferred our characteristics, but the advantage, by those who discussed it, was generally considered to boil down to whichever pilot got the jump. I was quite confident, however, that I had the advantage in a Spit IX (or on this day, a Spit VIII), if the other fellow would stay and fight."

" I must say that I was not particularly concerned about the fact that there were three Focke-Wulf 190s here, because in my experience, when one engaged the leader of the flight, the other pilots tended to circle around the periphery and not get involved. They seemed to respect the leader's perogative. I don't know whether this was a general Luftwaffe tendency, and I don't recall ever discussing it with the fellows, but it was definitely the way I felt they behaved."

" This time however, I was closing in on one 190 when another one turned on me and I was involved with both of them for a couple of minutes. At that point, one of my cannons jammed. I was left with four machine guns and one cannon, the recoil from which caused the aircraft to yaw sideways. Then the two FW 190s followed their customary behaviour and circled around the periphery while their leader and I had (what we called) a good go at it."

" I think that this fellow was a very experienced pilot and perhaps the best that I had ever encountered up to that time. He absolutely refused to fight in a way that would allow me to utilize the Spitfire's superior qualities. In short, he would not stay with me because he knew that I could turn a tighter radius and get on his tail, and it would be all over. He fought entirely his way, and I couldn't do a thing about it. This consisted of a series of shallow dives at full speed, zooming up, flick-turning, and coming back at me, head-on. I would meet him head-on, then whip the Spit around tightly to port as he was going by, with full throttle the whole time, watch him zoom up out of range and flick-turn around to come down at me again, by which time, of course, I would have completed my tight turn."

" Sometimes I got a short burst head-on. But I acknowledge that with the long nose of the Spitfire, it was difficult to pull on the little bit of deflection that was necessary without losing the Focke-Wulf under the nose, and presenting a target. So some of these short bursts were pure intimidation just before he would zoom by my wingtip."

" I had never worked so hard in a scrap. My aircraft behaved very well (other than the jammed cannon) as I jerked it around mercilessly, pulling back as hard as I could on the stick, producing so much G-force that my mouth fell open every turn: the masseter muscles were overcome by gravity force and I couldn't keep my jaws clenched shut. This meant that after each turn I had to reach up and pull my oxygen mask down again when my lower jaw got below it. No problem, but inconvenient."

" "Damn you," I swore. "Why won't you stay with me?""

" But I knew the answer. And I knew that he knew, and that's all there was to it. Well, almost all."

" Finally, I got a fair lick at him and saw strikes, and a piece of his sheet metal tore off and fell away like a leaf in the wind. My first impression was that it was a piece of the cowling, but I didn't see any smoke or fire. Focke-Wulfs were formidible. Air-cooled engines had no radiators for glycol leaks. Then I wondered if he had just jettisoned a slip tank. But he couldn't have because he had been bombing and couldn't carry both, and in any case I would have seen an external tank. Certainly, the other two Focke-Wulfs which I was watching out of the corner of my eye did not have drop tanks. So it must have been sheet metal."

" Anyway, I lost him. We were down near the ground when two more FW 190s in fairly close formation appeared from the east, probably Foggia, and I thought it prudent to leave: I was a long way from home. I left the throttle open for a few minutes, but didn't see any Focke-Wulfs following."

The author, Dr.Kennedy, went on to fight in Normandy and survive the war, being shot down by ground fire and escaping with the help of the French resistance.
He was eventually credited with 14 enemy aircraft destroyed and 3 shared kills after engagements with BF109s, FW190s, and Junkers 52 transports while flying SpitVs, VIIIs, and IXs. After the war he became a medical doctor. His book is published by GSPH, ISBN 0-919431-82-8
« Last Edit: June 23, 2004, 04:45:30 PM by fluffy »

Offline Seeker

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FW190 vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2004, 10:42:52 AM »
Thx!

Offline Oldman731

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Re: FW190 Tactics vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2004, 11:43:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by fluffy
I thought that you all might enjoy reading an excerpt from 'Black Crosses Off My Wingtip', the war memoirs of Irving F. Kennedy (RCAF retired)

Thanks, Twang, great read.

- oldman

Offline Red Tail 444

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FW190 vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2004, 12:05:18 PM »
Another LW HO dweeb :lol

Great read, goes to prove to everyone it's all about the pilot, not only the machine...

Offline moot

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Re: FW190 Tactics vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2004, 12:23:26 PM »
Quote
pulling back as hard as I could on the stick, producing so much G-force that my mouth fell open every turn: the masseter muscles were overcome by gravity force and I couldn't keep my jaws clenched shut.

hehe
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Online Shane

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READ THIS YOU GANGING SLOBBERDONKEYS!
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2004, 12:39:49 PM »
great read. I found the below exerpt to be veeeeeeery interesting.


" I must say that I was not particularly concerned about the fact that there were three Focke-Wulf 190s here, because in my experience, when one engaged the leader of the flight, the other pilots tended to circle around the periphery and not get involved. They seemed to respect the leader's perogative. I don't know whether this was a general Luftwaffe tendency, and I don't recall ever discussing it with the fellows, but it was definitely the way I felt they behaved."  
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Offline moot

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FW190 vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2004, 12:42:15 PM »
hehe

and then Urchin finally voxed back:

WELL WTF DO YOU THINK I WANT YOU TO DO???

to me as I was perched a few hundred above in a jet...
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Offline GScholz

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FW190 vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2004, 01:50:49 PM »
Why is that Shane?
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Offline Red Tail 444

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Re: READ THIS YOU GANGING SLOBBERDONKEYS!
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2004, 02:00:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shane

" I must say that I was not particularly concerned about the fact that there were three Focke-Wulf 190s here, because in my experience, when one engaged the leader of the flight, the other pilots tended to circle around the periphery and not get involved. They seemed to respect the leader's perogative. I don't know whether this was a general Luftwaffe tendency, and I don't recall ever discussing it with the fellows, but it was definitely the way I felt they behaved."  


:rofl  Only in RL...only in RL....:rofl

He clearly never flew in the MA, where "real" pilots fly...:rolleyes:

Offline Charge

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FW190 vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2004, 04:00:16 AM »
Now thats how a 190 should fly.

Fighting in Spit VIII against 190 JABOs?

Lets put a 190F against a VIII equivalent, say, IX against it in AH and see who dominates the fight.  :rofl

Guess somebody's got his Tail spanked Red recently by a luftwheenie, eh?
:D


Good story fluffy!

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Offline Wilbus

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FW190 vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2004, 04:16:36 AM »
Very nice, thanks alot!
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

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Offline Karnak

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FW190 vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2004, 04:16:46 AM »
Yeah, because those were Fw190Fs and the Spitfire F.Mk IX is soooo much like the Spitfire LF.Mk VIII.
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Offline Wilbus

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FW190 vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2004, 06:20:40 AM »
Actually Karnak I would guess they were Jabo equiped 190 A5's :)
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Crumpp

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FW190 vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2004, 09:29:23 AM »
I agree Wilbus.

They are probably packing extra armour, hardpoints, and a boost system.  

However, There is no way to tell though since they could simply be 190 "Normaljager's" fitted with a center hardpoint at the geschwader maintenance shop and sent out to drop a bomb.

Only facts we can really get from pilot exerpts are very general conclusions.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck.  It must be a duck.

Spit IX pilots did not fight 190's in the verticle and they knew the A/C was an equal.

Great read!  I think the rottenfliegers in the kette (since they are flying in a kette and the time period I will bet they are jabostafflen or SchnellKampfgeschwader and most likely equipped with Umrustsatz's Jabo Aircraft.) are holding off because in the LW promotion and decorations were given out based on your kill score.  Plus their rottenfuerher may have been teaching a new pilot and put them on the "perch" to watch his six and learn from his attack.  Guess they learned that luck counts too! In fact sometimes that is the deciding factor.


Crumpp

Offline GScholz

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FW190 vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2004, 09:34:08 AM »
Definitively a "watch and learn lads" moment yes ... "Woups!"
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