FW190 Tactics vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter

[straffo]

Originally posted by Crumpp
The Typhoon was another A/C.  Not sure on the P38 but I believe it too was outturned by 190A.  Have to check my resources.  

Depend heavily on the context.

[Crumpp]

Context is the RAF test flights.  

Not sure what you are saying Straffo.  Your English is garbled.

Crumpp

[straffo]

yep ... it just show I changed my mind in the middle of the sentence

Hurry to find your document ,I want to see it

[Crumpp]

Straffo,

The P38F was the model tested against Fabers 190A3.

Above 23,000 feet the P38 was 6-8mph faster with the lead increasing the higher you go.

23,000 feet and below the FW-190A3 was faster from a Maximum of 15 mph faster from sea level up to 8000 feet.  At 15,000 feet the 190 is 5-8 mph faster.

Climb rate - The 190 is superior below 20,000 feet. The 190 climbs at the same angle and is 20 mph faster in the climb.  The zoom climb of the 190 was superior to the P38 up until 20,000 feet.  After that the P38 becomes superior.

Roll rate - P38 was hopelessly inferior

Turn rate - Above 140 mph the 190 outturned the P38.  Below that the p38 was superior.

Accelleration - The 190 was superior at all heights.

Dive - The 190 was better particularly in the initial accelleration.

Crumpp

[straffo]

I was thinking of the typhoon trial

I won't be surprise to see the 190 superior in :
-climb
-acceleration
-roll
and inferior in
-dive
-level speed.

For turn rate it depend ,the initial turn rate of the typhoon is IMO better ... after the 1st circle the 190 should be superior ...

[straffo]

I've read a ADFU trial comparing typhoon and spit V where it was said that in initial part of a turn the typhoon was in a firing position ... but after 2 turn the spit was on her 6.

Sadly I'm unable to retrieve my source (organisation is not my strongest point ) ...

[Crumpp]

Ahh the Typhoon!


Well the 190 was having engine trouble and that test had to be abbreviated.  The information they give is:

Speed - About equal with the Typhoon having a slight advantage until 2000 feet.

Climb - 190 is very much superior.  The Typhoon climbs at a faster speed by much lower rate.  Zoom climb was about the same.

Dive - The 190 is superior in initial dive accelleration and dives about the same speed.  The controls of the Typhoon are not as light and responsive as those of the 190.

Turn radius - About as equal as two planes can get.  both test pilots were of the opinion that niether A/C could gain on the other.  It is noted that the Typhoon test pilot was a very experienced pilot from the Hawker Factory and the 190 pilot was reluctant to push the A/C that close to the ground.  An experienced German pilot probably could have turned tighter.
 

roll rate - The 190 was superior with the Typhoon being unable to keep up with changes in direction when the 190 rolled and then turned.

accelleration - From a slow speed the 190 is very much superior to the Typhoon.  At fast speeds the A/C accellerate the same.

 Hope that helps!

Crumpp

[Angus]

What kind of Typhoon was that?
Anyway:
"Climb - 190 is very much superior. The Typhoon climbs at a faster speed by much lower rate. Zoom climb was about the same. !
How much difference in FPM?
Angle in climb is interesting. If they were doing the same fpm, the Typhoon would probably pull away from the 190 in the climb.
I've heard that the P38 pilots used this as an escape maneuver while fighting zekes in the PTO´, climbing away at 1500 fpm doing 300 mph.
Would be fun to philosophize more about this

[Crumpp]

Yes the situation is exactly reversed with the Spitfire.  the 190 climbs at a faster rate but shallower angle.  If a 190 pilot tried to directly follow a Typhoon then he would soon find the Typhoon above him.  You would have to compare a climb graph to determine exactly what the rate was at a determined altitude.  

I was surprised at the speed and dive.  I expected the Typhoon to be very much superior in both.


Crumpp

[Angus]

I think I read somewhere, that generally the Typhoon and later the Tempest were easily faster in level flight, not to mention a shallow dive. Same goes with the mossie.
A tiffy pilot described this as having no worries being caught by a 190 or a 109, - he would just open for full power if he needed.
Maybe also faster cruising speeds. After all, in WW2, the merge often occured just around cruising speed, not top speed as in AH.

[Crumpp]

Here is the Tempest V trails--Enjoy!


==============================================
TACTICAL COMPARISON WITH TYPHOON IB

13. The comparison is fairly close and clear because the aircraft are fairly similar, differing chiefly in wing section only. The wing loadings are similar (37.4 lbs. Tempest, and 39.7 lbs. Typhoon)

Radius of Action
14. The Tempest, as it stands, (no nose tank or long range tanks) has approximately the same range as the Typhoon IB without long-range tanks. The fuel and oil capacities of the Tempest are 132 gallons and 14 gallons respectively, compared with 154 gallons and 16 gallons of the Typhoon. The fact that the Tempest cruises at 15-20 mph faster than the Typhoon at the same engine settings approximately cancels out the discrepancy in fuel load. A Tempest fitted with a nose tank (30 gallons) and the 45 gallon long-range tanks (252 gallons total) would have about 1 1/4 times the range of a Typhoon IB with maximum fule load (243 galls. total).

Speeds
15. According to the offical speed curves, the maximum speeds of the Tempest at all heights are 15-20 mph faster. This is also true for all intermediate settings.

Climbs
16. The Tempest climbs at a slightly steeper angle and at the same airspeed producing 200-300 ft. increase in maximum rate of climb. Because of its greater cleanliness, its zoom climb is much better.

Dive
17. For the same reasons as the zoom climb, the Tempest pulls ahead. As the speed is increased it does so more rapidly. The fact is it has the best acceleration in the dive yet seen at this Unit.

Turning Circle
18. Very Similar. Any difference appears to be in favour of the Typhoon. This is too slight to alter combat tactics.

Rate of Roll
19. The Tempest has the better rate of roll at all speeds

Conclusions
20. Taken all round, the Tempest V is a great improvment on the Typhoon IB.

Search View and Rear View
21. The all-round view from the pilot's cockpit is excellent, especially the rear view. This has been made possible by the "tear drop" hood which gives the pilot a better all-round unobstucted view than any other aircraft- Hun or friendly. It is also fitted to some Typhoons.

Sighting View and Fire-Power
22. The aircraft is fitted with the Mark II sight. The installation should be modified in some cases to produce direct reflection on to the windshield. The sighting view is about the same as the Typhoon, being approximately 4 1/2 degrees. It is also fitted to some Typhoons.

23. The Tempest is a steady gun platform. Air-to-ground the aircraft has the same slight tendency as the Typhoon to fly into the ground, being not so good as the Spitfire in this respect. The guns cannot be depressed any lower than parallel to the datum, so this defect cannot be overcome.

Armour
24. Of a similar design and installation as on the Typhoon aircraft, with the exception that the head-piece is a trifle larger in size.

Thickness of headpiece - 9 mm
Thickness of back pieces 6 m.m.

All fuel tanks are self-sealing. Bullit-proof windscreen is of "Dry-cell" type. Front side of outer gun ammunition tanks have a piece of 1/8" armour plate.

COMPARISON WITH MUSTANG III

Range and Endurance
25. By comparison the Tempest without nose tank or long-range tanks, has no range. When the extra fuel is available it should have a little more than half that of the Mustang III fitted with two 62.5 gallon long-range tanks, but without the extra 71 gallon body tank.

Maximum Speed
26. The Tempest V is 15-20 mph faster up to 15,000 ft., there is then no choice to 24,000 ft, when the Mustang rapidly pulls ahead, being about 30 mph faster at 30,000 ft.

Climbs
27. These compare directly with the results of the speed tests. At similar performance height the Tempest has a better zoom climb.

Turning Circle
28. The Tempest is not quite as good as the Mustang III.

Rate of Roll
29. The Tempest is not so good. This attribute may be improved upon later aircraft with re-designed ailerons.

Conclusions
30. The Mustang III has superior range of action and general performance above 24,000 ft. Conclusions should not be drawn below this height, but the Tempest has a much better rate of climb and speed below 10,000 feet.

==============================================

With a 190A3

==============================================

COMBAT TRIALS AGAINST FW.190 (BMW.801D)

Maximum Speed
38. The Tempest is nearly 50 mph faster at all heights. It is estimated that the Tempest V may be very slightly faster than the new FW.190 (DB.603) up to 20,000 ft.

Climb
39. Except below 5,000 feet the FW.190 (BMW.801D) has a slightly better maximum rate of climb. Because of the Tempest V's speed and clean lines however, the Tempest has a markedly better zoom climb, where the speed is kept high. Against the new FW.190 (DB.603) it is estimated that the Tempest will have a markedly superior climb below 5,000 feet, but a similar maximum climb above that height.

Dive
40. The Tempest pulls away rapidly in a dive from all heights.

Turning Circles
41. There is very little difference in turning circles between the two aircraft. If anything a very slight advantage lies with the Tempest.

Rate of Roll
42. The Tempest V cannot compare with the FW 190.

Conclusions
43. Similar tactics should be used against the FW.190 as used by the Typhoon squadrons, advantage being taken of high speed. Such handling should prove most effective. The Tempest has an exceptional ground height performance even (estimated against the FW.190 (DB.603).


==============================================

Crumpp

[straffo]

Crummp I think this is not the Typhoon we have in AH.
I'm speaking of the 190/Typhoon comparaison you posted, not the post just above

Maybe also faster cruising speeds. After all, in WW2, the merge often occured just around cruising speed, not top speed as in AH.

Don't get me started on this fuel multiplier stupidity again ... because of this "feature" it just work backward

[Crumpp]

I think it is actually two different Typhoons or different booast levels just like most Military A/C.  They evolve over their service life.  The first evaluation is against Faber's A3 with and Early model Typhoon.  The Tempest Evaluation is a later model Typhoon vs a mid-war (most likely 190A4/U8) 190.  It could also quite possibly be a 190G8.  The RAF test flight had both models of 190 to test however they did not get a flyable G8 until fairly late in '44.  

The A/C Brown flys in his book in Feb '44 is a 190A4/U8 and it is not retired from the RAF test flight until Oct '44 due to a landing accident.

This flight test occurs in Jun '44.

Crumpp