another whine

[niklas]

Hristo, i never heard from such devices.
I only have theese numbers:
They calculate the maximum torque that you can obtain with a maximum stick force

elevator (pull): max. 85Kg  >> 31,4mkg
elevator (push): max. 70Kg  >> 13,4mkg
ailleron: max. 30kg >> 6,0mkg
rudder: max. 150kg  >> 20,0mkg

you can see that you get only a third of the elevator torque when you push the stick compared to pull the stick.

I think the P-51 profits most by the deficiencies of the FM at the moment.
Just have a look to the influence of fuel to the weight/ performance. Hristo, you did 2 or three weeks ago a climb test with 25% and 100%fuel load. Both, the 109 and the P51, lost with 100% compared to 25%fuel load about 500-700ft/min climb performance. BUT 100%fuel means MUCH MORE Volume fuel and thus weight for a pony than 100% for a 109.
Itīs always the same. I climb in a 109 with my external fuel tank and 100%fuel load to 22000ft. A P51 does the same with 50% fuel load. When we begin to start to fight, i drop my external tank and have 100%fuel load left. the P51 has now about 30-40% left. We both should have the same volume/mass/weight of fuel in our tanks left, but thatīs not correct modelled with the FM- The 109 suffers a lot more under itīs 100% fuel now.
Fuel load has also no influence to the roll-speed of the planes. You can load the wings of a P51 with hundreds of gallons of fuel, it still has itīs good rollspeed. It will still accerlerate to maximum rollspeed in a millisecond. If you roll it with maximum rollspeed, if you release your stick, youīll almost immediately stop rolling, though 5000kg weight are in motion, and some 100kg weight with a big distanz to the center point of rotation.
The FM does not simulate at the moment different rollspeeds for different flightspeeds, or the effect is very small. So it doesnīt make a difference whether a plane has front edge wings (slotted wings) to keep up ailleron control at low speeds or not.
Somebody said the .50 are undermodelled?? huw, they can easily kill a heavy armoured B17. And what is good against a buff works 10 times better against a fighter. I mean, a P51 must have the abillity to kill a buff here in the arena...

niklas

[Vermillion]

Ok, I wanted to stay outta this, but gawd am I sick of this anti-P51 whine, so.... <jumps into the fray>

Bull###t,Bull###t,Bull###t.

The P-51 is in no way overmodeled, especially after the latest tuning which removed much of its vertical ability.

Now, the 109 may be undermodeled in low speed handling, but that doesn't mean the P-51 is wrong.

Not sure of exact numbers with this version, but the 109G10 is actually faster at many altitudes, plus it can climb faster. And anything will outturn the P-51 if you have equal pilots, except maybe the 190.

One word. Tactics.

People seem to forget about all the inexperienced rookie Mustang drivers that get killed when they get caught low and slow, because they are just easy targets.

All they remember is the Pony's that sit above them methodically killing off the low and slow furballers.

What is happening is that Aces High is finally starting to develope some very good E-Fighters, who have learned how to fight with advantage and patience, and who can feed off the low fur practically at will.

Its not the plane, its the pilots. Its just that currently the P-51 is the best plane in the arena for these tactics. Take it away, and the same thing will happen with F4U's. Take away the F4U, and the 190 will do the job. No, your not currently seeing the the F4U or 190 do this. But thats because most (not all) of the pilots that have perfected the tactic are flying P-51's. Just like the better TnB pilots are flying Spitfires and C.205s. Most pilots pick the best plane for the tactics they use.

Any plane in the planeset will beat a P-51 given Co-E or Co-Alt situations. All the P-51 can do in that case is to run away like a screaming little girl. And if they don't start to run early enough, they will get caught by the other aircraft that accelerate much more quickly.

And the .50 cals being overmodeled? Try flying the plane some. I fly the P-51, but I also fly the N1K2 (alot) and the 190 (a little). The .50 cals take a sustained 3 to 4 second burst to kill. Either of the cannon birds can kill with a fraction of a second snapshot. And thats the way it should be.

Its not the plane, its the pilots. Period.

Fly Smart, stay high (and high isn't 10k), keep your speed up, and those Pony drivers can't touch you.

Dive low into the furball, get slow by turning and burning constantly, and get fixated on your target, and those Pony's will eat you up.

------------------
Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires "

[Westy]

Amen Vermillion.

It sounds like a day care in here at times.

-Westy

[dolomite]

It's the same thing in every sim I've ever played; if one plane has a perceived edge over the others, the sky will be clouded with the numbers of people in it.

DoA had the Camel.
Brand W had the Spitfire.
AH has the P51.

It isn't the issue of which flight model is enhanced either. 1 vs. 1 any plane in this set is competitive if flown properly. It will come down to pilot skill. I can honestly say that, short of getting continuously vultched defending a field, precious few Mustangs have ever shot me clean out of the air.

But therein lies another problem- this is an arena. The ability of the P51 to zip in and out of fights relatively unscathed makes many people loathe it. Then, if a 51 pilot actually develops the skill to dogfight it, others will jump on the "unrealistic flight model" bandwagon. There is no way for a the 51 shed its dweeb image.

I submit there is no problem with the 51 per se, just the fact that the arena is too full of a single plane type. I wouldn't dare tell someone to fly or not fly a certain aircraft; that's their choice. I could wish that there were limits on type in the air at a given moment (but that isn't economically wise).

Individually, ants are no problem. Get a few thousand crawling all over you, and you have a big problem!

[combat23]

Morning all, been enjoying all the posts and will say I agree with Vermillion,s last, except for the part about co alt co E stangs being beat every time by any plane.When you wrote that one verm you got off your point. Ie: ITS THE PILOT. According to what little I understand from reading Shaw, In that situation which ever pilot makes a mistake looses.

To prove the point: Last night I got shot down many times in a c205 and a p51. I was out turned, out climbed, out dove and out run by planes that (according to the posts) shoudn't be able to beat me that way.  WHY? Cause I'm new at this. I don't fly well. Very little SA. Incorrect move at the wrong time. ECT, ECT... I believe it's the pilot. Sure some planes did somethings better than others. Pilots took aadvantage of that.  But make a mistake with your Fav ride and some one else flying xxx is going to wax you. Trust me I have become an expert on being waxed.

All in all it's been fun and I plan on being up there providing all of you with an easy kill till someday(sooner than later I hope) I get it right.

See ya on line

[Hristo]

Just to make my views clear. I am not arguing about P 51 in the arena, nor the tactics or matchups, or even 1 vs 1 combat.

I have only tried to limit the discussion to the low speed handling and maneuverability of 109, compared to P 51. In offline mode, doing simple maneuvers and watching the gauges. Low speed flight and everything connected to it.

Niklas, those numbers are great info. Please post some more on the 109, who knows, maybe designers don't have them. Also, please, post your source.

I will reread Green's 109 chapter again when I get home today.

[Ripsnort]

"Ive long since lost count of the sorti,s that have been ruined for me, by a p51 that I never even exchanged shots with. Just having the damn thing lurking around keeps you from engageing a con that you would jump right in with otherwise. I see more and more gangs of them flying togather all the time.

Believe it or not, the Germans whined about the same thing in late war.  

------------------
Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
"There is no reason anyone would
want a computer in their home."
   Ken Olson, president, chairman and
founder of Digital Equipment Corp.,1977

[Pongo]

I dont like the 109 as much in this version as last but the skies are alot less full of 51s then they used to be so something must have happend. I see lots of 190s,la5s, 205s and nikis not as many f4us and 109s(but always some) Between the spit and 51 you still have about 25-30% of the planes. Thats not too bad. I think that AH has been very successful in this regard.

[Hangtime]

Verm... Loved yer post.. Right on the money.

Hang (in the bullet riddled stang; limping home with a scorched engine; with half an ass, no flaps and sprung gear.. again.  )

------------------
PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8

[Vermillion]

Combat23 let me clarify myself, because I agree with you totally  

Given pilots of exactly even skill, with the same amount of experience in their ride of choices, then ....

 

Any plane in the planeset will beat a P-51 given Co-E or Co-Alt situations. All the P-51 can do in that case is to run away like a screaming little girl.

Exception I.) The Fw190.  These two planes are fairly evenly matched in all categories, except top speed (+ P51) and firepower (+190), that it is the only plane that may have a difficult time going 1 v 1 , Co-Alt, Co-E, with a Mustang. In this case even minute differences in piloting skill will be paramount.

------------------
Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires "

[Hristo]

OK, I will post my question in Aircraft & Vehicles forum.

[popeye]

Exception 2.  F4u-1  I drive the Hog a lot and have found that a co-E P-51 can be a real challenge.  The 51 has better low speed handling, more acceleration, more speed at most altitudes, better climb rate, and equal guns.  The only advantages the Hog has are roll rate and durability.

There are several P-51 pilots in AH that I do NOT want to meet co-E in my Hog.  

popeye

[combat23]

Ok verm I'll buy that. Smart pilot would take his option and run. I would think that in a Perfect world 1v1, both pilots making no mistake (just about any two planes in correct time set) no one would get shot down.

see ya on line

[TT]

 I call B S on all this skill business. This game is more about gang banging then skill. If your the bangee, you die. The banger, and you pat yourself on the ba ck and tell yourself how much skill you have. The p51 gangs magnify this to the point where it is absurd.

[Ripsnort]

Okay, TT, let's look at it from a different perspective:
You said:
The speed of the P51 is so out of preportion to the rest of the planes, that it just ruins this game..

Now, lets get rid of the 51 altogether, then someone would say this:

The speed of the FW190 is so out of preportion to the rest of the planes, that it just ruins this game...

Take away the FW190...

The speed of the F4U is so out of preportion to the rest of the planes, that it just ruins this game...

Take away the F4U...

The speed of the 109 is so out of preportion to the rest of the planes, that it just ruins this game...

Take away the 109...

The speed of the Spit is so out of preportion to the rest of the planes, that it just ruins this game...

Do you see where I'm getting?  There are significant differences in airplanes, Joe Stalin didn't create them, or they would have all been the same speed, turn radius etc.  You are always going to have  a dominant A/C in a sim, no getting around it.  Do what I do, I jump in a FW and 'hunt' nothing but P51's.  It makes me feel better.  Until the Dora comes out, the P51 will ALWAYS be the fastest plane in the game.

------------------
Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
"There is no reason anyone would
want a computer in their home."
   Ken Olson, president, chairman and
founder of Digital Equipment Corp.,1977