Author Topic: Strat model in AH2  (Read 2097 times)

Offline 6GunUSMC

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Strat model in AH2
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2004, 01:11:38 PM »
Let's not forget that fuel porking is no longer available to stop the enemy because of the ridiculous 2.0 fuel burn multiplier.

Offline Octavius

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« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2004, 01:46:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MadSquirrel
Good idea, but I think you are just changing the target from airfields to resource points.


Well, I think thats half the point :)  Instead of limiting one's ability to fly (pork), other alternative solutions are offered in conjunction with the current landgrab setup, to help facilitate

Think of it as this silly analogy:  The current fight is limited to, say, a firefight on a bridge.  You have two ways:  forwards and backwards.  Like a Soviet horde, regardless of which tactics you employ in this very limited area of the bridge, numbers will win (ie, gangbang).  With alternatives, one can think of different tactics not requiring hording or porking.  Why not make it a double deck bridge?  Bypass the fighting below and achieve the same result.  Why not jump off the bridge and swim to achieve hte same result?  

I think you get the jist.

I do like Wotan's idea though.  More or larger 'country strat targets' would be needed and I would imagine these points would be a huge number - to prevent a small group of players from reseting the damn thing in two hours time.  Any of the multiple routes would be equal in overall difficulty.
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2004, 02:57:17 PM »
beetle... no... you never had the problem when fields were close and easy to capture like in WB's..  I agree the "missunz" is a lot of the problem tho.  If the fields are easy to take and retake... the battle over them is fierce.   If the fields are far away and difficult to capture it encourages (cough) "teamwork" ....a polite term for ovewhelming large numbers or.... gangbang.

as for two countries... only makes it worse IMO..  4 isn't good either as we have seen..  so far, 3 is about the best.

lazs

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2004, 04:23:07 PM »
Laz is right. Its just an attrition model but the only thing that gets attritited is the enemies moral.
Take away the fun of them playing and they do something else with their leisure time. No need to imply there is any real complexity to it.

Offline MotorOil

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« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2004, 04:41:43 PM »
Rooks in my opinion have always been the best organized with or without numbers.  It's probably the reason the numbers are staying rook.

As for the fuel porking, I didn't mind it in AH1, just upped from one base back.  Probably accounts for the entire Rook alt monkey whines.  Ya it took an extra 5 minutes, but you could never guarantee you'd see a fight from a close base anyway and you could grab a little extra alt.  Don't see anyone complaining about the lack of suicide porkers that usually targeted fuel...  Does this happen in AHII?  Was a good way to stop a hoard.

Offline mojo55

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« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2004, 04:44:24 PM »
Where did all the bishops go...?

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2004, 05:29:21 PM »
How about this? Posted a few moons ago..

--------------------------------------------------

The problem with strat, I've come to think, is that if strats effect gameplay too quickly and directly, people come to hate it because it becomes a limiting factor all too quick.

However, if strats effect gameplay too indirectly and slowly, it's existence is hardly worthwhile.

I think, that in the MA, both of these problems exist side-by-side.

1. Field strats, are very few in numbers opposed to typically numerous people going after it. The field layout was designed in the early days of AH.

An airfield is immediately rendered useless for a time when a handful of fuel bunkers are destroyed. Frontline advances are immediately stopped when two~three barracks are down. A handful of suicidal people can delay many things.


2. On the contrary, country-level strats, are basically useless as a target. They act much too slowly. The only target of worth is the city and the HQ.

The problem with country strat, is that it is designed to effect strat capabilities only when a certain 'sequence' is reached. First kill all the city buildings(halt factory rebuild), then kill all the factory buildings(halt field strat rebuild), then kill the field strat - only by this sequence, the strat factor kicks into action. If any of the 'sequence' goes wrong, all the effort put into it before goes to waste. Since, typically country strats are placed at the deepest of fields, there's hardly ever a chance to initiate the 'sequence' so the strat factor goes into action.


...

In this case, logically, I think a 'middle point' has to be reached.

Many suggestions have come to pass that the only way a really profound strat factor can be applied to the game is by introducing attrition - but immediate attrition, hurts game play. Porking fuels, IMO, can be viewed as an example of immediate attrition.

On the contrary almost no attritional value at all, is what can be said of the strats - as it is almost impossible to destory so many things at so short limited time in the MA - considering the unorganized nature of players.

...


Would it be possible, that attritional values of strat objects be designed to work slowly, but steadily?

It's still the early stages of thinking, so I find it hard to describe what I have in mind, but it's something like this;


* If the 'official' policy is to switch maps every one-week term, then the strat values are updated by every real-time, one-day, 24hour length. In the MA, this will be referred to as "Day1", "Day2", "Day3" and etc.

* Field strats, will reup as fast as within 5 minutes when country strat effecting its rebuild time is at 100% efficiency.

* Field strats, will reup as slow as 2 hours, when country strat effecting its rebuild time is at 0% efficiency.

* "Country strat", takes on the form of accumulated damage.

* The visual objects of country strats, such as factory buildings or HQ, will of course, can be destroyed and rebuilt. But the strategic "value point" it holds, does not replenish.

* Every one-day term, the total damage done to a certain country strat objects are calculated. If the total damage exceeds a certain set point, then 30% of country strat efficiency goes down.

* Every one-day term, country strat replenishes 10% of its strategic efficiency.

* Therefore, when a certain side has extensively done enough damge to country strats in a certain day term, the country strat efficiency will go down 20% ({30% down in strat efficiency due to total damage exceeding the set limit} - {10% replenished strategic efficiency})

* For example, if Rooks attack Knit country strat of radar facility, constantly pounding it at Day1, and succeeding to exceed the set damage point: at Day2, the Knit radar facility efficiency will be at 80%.

* This means, rebuild time of destroyed field objects will be slowing down. In the example above, ALL Knit radar at ALL Knit fields, will be effected in rebuild time if destroyd, at Day2. Knit radar facility, will be at 80% efficiency

*The effect of strat efficiency - rebuild time is suggested as follows;

100% - 5 minutes
90% - 7 minutes
80% - 10 minutes
70% - 15 minutes
60% - 25 minutes
50% - 40 minutes
40% - 60 minutes
30% - 1 hour 10 minutes
20% - 1 hour 30 minutes
10% - 1 hour 50 minutes
0% - 2 hours

* So, in the example, in Day2, Knit radar facility efficiency will be down to 80%. If a radar on Knit base is destroyed, it will take 10 minutes to rebuild, as opposed to Day1, where all country's strat efficiency is at 100%, it will take only 5 minute to rebuild.

* This strat efficiency will be allowed to be resupplied/recovered by player supplies, but it should be fairly difficult to recover. Someting like 20 goon drops = 1% replenished value. To recover 10% manually, without waiting for automatic replenished values the next day, it will take 200 goon supply drops.

* The "total damage value" set for a country strat, which determines if a country can successfully bust 30% of the top efficiency the next one-day term, should be fairly high. Something like two Lancaster formations reaching enemy country strat once every hour, for 24 hours -> 48 Lancaster formations -> 144 Lancaster bombers in a 24hour term -> 2 million 16 thousand pounds of bombs.

* The city, will effect how fast a town reups.

* If this works, I view that MA gameplay can become something like this:

1. one week term of a certain map starts.
2. at Day1, every strat object rebuilds within 5 minutes. Including town.
3. so at Day1, field capture is extreme difficult. There will be a lot of furball fights. with almost nothing effecting the fuels. If one side wishes to capture a field, they will have to get a goon standing by, CAP the field completely, and precisely time the goon drop to advance.
4. so at Day1, the advancement in frontlines will be pretty much stagnant. But lot of furball fights will happen.
5. if, a certain side, is compelled to look further out than just Day1, they will start strat attacks.
6. Ideally, by Day 4~5, if a certain country has planned its long=term strategy well, some of enemy country strats will be effected and downed to 50~60%.
7. by Day6~7, reset phase becoming imminent, the losing country will have its strats down to 10, 20%, or even 0%.

...


The strengths of this strat system, is that there's literally everything for everyone. At Day1, it's furballer's paradise. Field porkage almost doesn't work. Everything reups in 5 minutes.

If, strat players look ahead of that, they will start hitting enemy country strats massively - but this, will not effect the gameplay profoundly in the first 2~3 days of a new map.

If the strat players succeed in the difficult task of hitting country strats for all week, then at the last few days of the map, it becomes strat paradise. If strat players fail to do that, it will be furballer's paradise for whole week.

So, it's a sort of a no-negotiations, fight to get what you want, style of strat with delayed attrition. If strat players organize large missions and hit strats continuously for days, in the final phases of the map they will have almost total victory - many field objects, and even towns, staying down for max 2 hours! But that will be a difficult thing to do.

If furballers sense the potential danger of that, they will divide their time to cooperative defense, and stop strat players from porking things for days, and reaching their objective.

In the first few days, furballers will be dominant, with lot of plane fights with fuels uneffected. So the only way of field advancement will be total vulch and swarm tactics - strat players will have to divide their time to strat planning/action and, local defense.

So ideally, if it works, it will naturally compell both sides of the different groups of players to participate in various actions, in a cooperative manner without anyone yelling at anyone.

So, for the strat guys:

*Pros: The attritional power of strat is immense, very powerful. If continuously succeeding in large-scale strat attacks, in the last days of the week, the enemy will be almost totally helpless.

*Cons: Objective is very slow to reach. Very high standards of success. Lot of organization and many people required in a week-long effort.

For the furball guys:

*Pros: Games starts in a position where furballing fun is extreme. If successfully defend important strats, they can practically furball for whole week.

*Cons: If everybody indulges in to too much of near-sighted fighting, the last few days of the one-week term, will be incredibly difficult.


For everyone:

*Suicidal porkers are largely neutered for almost whole week(as long as country strat efficiency stays over 70~80%). Short-term, immediate suicidal action rarely effects anything. Besides, nobody would be pissed if a deluded suicidal dweeb goes kamikazeing in some corner of the map, all by himself, doing pitiful damage to strat targets which is of no use.

*The fun for the whole week - strat players may not achieve their objectives, but they'll get the chance to try a worthy challenge which lasts for the whole week. Furballers, will not see things getting worse - if country strat efficiency is down to 40~50%, it's still about the same as now. Only when it is totally down to 10~0%, will it become significantly worse for them.

Offline Edbert

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Strat model in AH2
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2004, 06:33:58 PM »
What I wanna know is why are the three FHs all in a tight ROW? One lone bomber with average aim can close a base down completely.

Offline NUTTZ

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« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2004, 06:51:54 PM »
Hmmm. It's a double edged sword. "IF" you make airfields harder to capture , they would ALSO be harder for the undermanned team to recapture.
Unless, as the numbers get unbalanced the HARDNESS of the objects increases. Or you can use an idea where like the HQ ( or something simular, far within the enemies country) that needs to be taken down before airfield "X" can even be captured ( also with an automatic rebuild time).  Just a few thoughts, But like AKCurly said, it's HiTechs call.

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Offline killnu

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« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2004, 06:58:35 PM »
how bout the country with the highest k/d ratio at map reset gets the perks? or most kills, something not obvious to the people playing the map.  just something different.  i understand if it is k/d, might have a bunch of scared alt monkies afraid to lower the k/d, but...  i guess ya nvr know.
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Offline Hornet

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« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2004, 08:09:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by killnu
how bout the country with the highest k/d ratio at map reset gets the perks? or most kills, something not obvious to the people playing the map.  just something different.  i understand if it is k/d, might have a bunch of scared alt monkies afraid to lower the k/d, but...  i guess ya nvr know.
~S~


to this point I always thought HTC should designate one country a winner per camp and the criteria should be stat based.

The winning team should hold the largest population of folks playing the right way, whether it be in fighters, bombers or gvs. It would be pure skill based and the numbers equation becomes irrelevant.  

I think this would also break down a lot of the fighter/strat rivalry as both camps will realize that pilots fully developing 1 skillset or the other helps their country win camps.
Hornet

Offline Wardog

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Strat model in AH2
« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2004, 10:00:00 PM »
See below Quote from 1999 wish list and tell me how many items on it got used. Time will always tell.

See thread: Ideas for Improved Strategy - Thread

Due to other commitments, ive been away from AH for a while but may return after Xmass.

Dog out.



Ideas for Improved Strategy - Thread

Let it come out if you have any ideas of what good strategy is in online simulation.

Here's a few that comes to my mind. IMO these would be great for gameplay and increase the variety of possible targets. When there's a lot of more than plain field capture in the game it would definitely discourage vulching IMHO

If Aces High is to introduce cities, factories, ports, bridges etc. A nice feature would be to give them different strategic outcomes.

Destroy an ammo train: Less API available. Destroy several trains no API available at all. Must use less lethal ammunition type.

Destroy Aircraft Factory: Certain plane usage limited. eg. Fw190 factory destoyed, Fw190's cannot exceed 20% of country's force.

Destroy City: Slightly Hindered overall rebuild times.

Destroy gun factory: Rebuild times of AAA guns severely hindered.

And maybe a special target randomly set by host. Not too often though, maybe once in about every 5 hours.

ie. on map screen:

"There's 30 minutes time to destroy Factory X. All destroyed elements in the Factory X will have the double impact on enemy activities compared to normal"

Now a well organized country would hastily put up a well escorted buff raid to take the factory out.

Something like that

Am I only dreaming or could these be implemented (in more throughly designed package of course )

Let us hear your ideas on Strategy!

Bug
« Last Edit: June 23, 2004, 10:04:17 PM by Wardog »

Offline DREDIOCK

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Strat model in AH2
« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2004, 01:10:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKcurly
Actually, it's very easy to kill all FHs at a small field now.  It takes one buff.  The 3 FHs are are in one row.

The problem with FHs/Buffs is one of speed.  It takes time to get a buff in position.  By the time you get "Fluffy" to the field with some altitude, they've captured your base and are currently attacking the next one.

From a stat pov, AH2 is hopeless ... well, that's a bit strong I guess.  It's appears hopeless since I haven't found the solution. ;)

curly


I predicted this would happen when I first heard of the change to the fuel situation.
This does nothing but play into the hands of the hoard warriors
And unless you have a hoard of your own following you  to maintain a cap Killing the FH's at a base does less then a speedbump and does next to nothing to slow the hoard down inasmuch as the FH's only stay down 15 min if you hit a base just after the first wave has lifted off they are nearly back up again by the time that wave has reached its target

Killing barracks will only be effective if you can kill all the barracks at bases 2 and 3 deep and that in itself will take a small hoard to accomplish
I still say the true pork and auger types were far far less numerous then what they are made out to be.
But its like anything else. If you keep saying something often enough eventualy people will start to beleive it

but now it doesnt matter cause Now the name of the game is hoard or be hoarded
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Offline AKcurly

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« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2004, 02:10:39 AM »
Interesting night, tonight.  Both Rooks and Knights outnumbered Bishops during prime time USA.  They scrimaged (since they were close in field count) a bit which permitted 3 of us to kill all rook troops bordering Bishop territory.  So, under those circumstances, HTCs changes to the strat model worked out ok for the outnumbered country.

curly

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2004, 07:10:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs
as for two countries... only makes it worse IMO..  4 isn't good either as we have seen..  so far, 3 is about the best.
The two country thing was tried in WB and at first we all thought we were going to like it. But part of the deal was the Axis/Allies split. When the latest aeronef du jour came out on its allotted RPS entry date, folks would switch sides to get the best ride. It was crap, and played no small part in my decision to quit. I never EVER saw a reset once the WW2 arena got started...

...Comparing that with how WB used to be -  with FOUR sides - and then looking at AH where there has always been three, I'd have to say I like the four country set up best of all. But even with four, the war was won when one country lost its last field. The country with the most fields at that point (not necessarily the same country that made that last capture) won the war.

Having four countries kept the balance nicely while all countries had approximately the same number of bases. But when one side started losing, it tended to get victimised by the two adjacent countries. (The country diagonally opposite was too far away) What the dorks of the lesser of those two adjacent countries often overlooked was that by victimising the underdog, they helped the country with the most bases to win the war.

Back to AH2 - I feel that given the level of cooperation that exists between the average set of players (ie. none), the current strat is way too complicated, what with factories dependent on cities, cities dependent on HQ - or however it goes. I'd say get rid of all that HQ/city/fuel/factory nonsense and just have targets at the bases - at least in the MA that's what I'd suggest. Those targets would include acks, radar, barracks and the town. Fuel porkage has been done to death, and needs a rest.