Flame On

[Minotaur]

After seeing what happened to Dynamite Danny --> I charge into the void.

My experience is Flight Sims only <lots>, no actual time in any Fighter AC, but I can still dream.  I have flown AH 6 or 7 times, offline and online.  

I am not yet part of the "I LOVE THIS GAME" cliche.

My take:

I expect to be flamed, but I am investing honest opinion's for game improvement. I have a dry sense of humor, so bear with.  

I really want AH to succeed.  Please let me know if I am "Just missing something".

Takeoffs:  

WTFO???  Torque effects, spiral air and gyro effects, OH MY.  I can get it off the ground, but give me a break.  

The runway is a joke, any surrounding flat land has to suffice.  The first dozen take-offs I used the hang glider approach, IE make it to that big cliff and launch --> "C'mon you can make it Buddy Boy" <G>.

No point in trying to land, crashes are easy.

Flight:

After figuring out the need for trim, that's all I seem to do in flight.  Trim left, trim right, OOP's trim down, trim aileron left etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.  This thing WON'T fly straight and level.

Unless of course you follow everyones advice, just hit Autopilot.  One up for the  total realism jocks.  Don't planes just kinda want to fly straight and level by design?  Somewhat like the marble in the bowl effect, helical wings or somthing?  Got me on this one.

Turning:

Turns seem to be more an attempt at not blacking out or keeping that "Oh toejam, the Hard Drive from H%ll is Crashing", noise for stalls out of my ears.  I mean a Cessna 150 can do Shandelles. <no flames for spelling plz>

You see virtually no ground movement and you black out.  Everything moves in slow motion, even pulling 4.5 g's.  No clue on the best turn speed at this point, any attempt to turn results in Rata-tat-tat, then spin out.  Forget BFM at this stage, besides I am still trimming.

The only time the rate of turn really moves is --->  You guessed it ----> Hit Autopilot.

Spins:

Hit Autopilot.

Head Bobbing effect:

This is cool, but look at the model.  Judging from the amount of head movement modeled, the pilot is built like Inspector Ratchet.  The neck and upper torso got to be stretched and compressed a full 8 inches.  I am assuming the pilot IS buckled in, and not just floppng about in the cockpit.  The side to side movement seems OK.

Tracers:

Way cool!!!

Map:  

Work on this.  Hard to figure out what is going on.


Flame Out, Flame Out;
Mino

[Crisis]

No flames, but I do have some varying opinions....

T/o's and landings: Complicated--yes, impossible--not at all.  In a spit, I apply full right roll trim, yaw by "stepping on the ball", and I can take off right down the middle of the runway.  No problem.

Landings require a little set-up:  I circle once to reduce speed, full flaps and gear down (duh), and gentle use of the rudder and I can land right down the middle with no bounce in a 51, and a little in a spit (I normally land with a tad to much vertical drop).

All the head movement: I would assume this is to allow the user to adjust the view to what (s)he feels comfortable flying with.  Again, no problem with the flexability here.

Spins:  I've only had one spin I couldn't get out of so far (although one took me down to 100 feet last night  .  

Blackouts: as with many people, after adjusting my stick dampers I no longer have a problem with this

I would like to see a little more done with the terrain.  But this is beta and I can live with it (although the canyon fights can get very hairy  

That's about it for me.
Crisis

[weazel]

IMO the difference between your post and Mr Dilweeds is the points your making can be construed as constructive-where his were obviously a masquerade of someone who knew a bit about flying an actual aircraft. As to your complaints about torque effects etc,welcome to a hardcore sim! IMO and others we want the original torque effects back-you think its difficult now? In regards to the stall sound if you want to e-mail me and I will send you some better sound effects,guns-rockets-stall-engine etc. Blackouts/redouts,sounds like you need to take the time to get your stick scaling settings worked out better,it`s not a problem when you set it up right-take some time and do it,you will have a much more enjoyable experience afterwards. As far as flaming you goes I`ll leave that for the masters,Curly-Verm where are you guys at?

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[indian]

Minotuar  Im not a pilot but I am a mechanic and yes planes are designed to fly straight. But that is whit a certian fuel load certian speed and nothing hanging from the wings. Trim is and will be nessecary all during the flight, as fuel burns the wieght and balance will change so the need to trim. In real life wind and humidity will add or decrease lift and the need for trim.

If you think torque is bad now wait till the F4U makes an appearance in the arena. The Take offs are done pretty realisticly and seem fine to me. I have been in plenty of takeoffs being a mechanic in the army.

This is still a beta lets not moan and groan about tid bits yet. We are not even threw the first month of what they said may take a year to complete. If you think programing is easy then come on by Texas and give them a visit. And if you think trim is not nessecary then go take an intro lesson on flying.

By the way tried not to make this sound like a flame but it may have.  

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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon

My Homepage
Where you can find the Key Commands in  files for Word6 Wordpad and text mode.

indians Homepage

Aces High Word6 and Wordpad Doc's available on my web site.

[leonid]

Minotaur:
The learning curve is very steep, but I kid you not, this is the real McCoy.  Expect to fly for about 3 months before even feeling relatively sure about take-offs and landings.

[TT]

sounds like your stick might be to sensitive. try making the curve a little flat,er in pitch and yaw.

 BTW you have a point about the flames. AGW has went to hell because of the personal attacks. You cant be to thin skinned on these boards. If you post up, some one will post down. you can count on it. But there are Kids playing these games so your gonna see some " our sim is the greatist" chest thumping from time to time<

[This message has been edited by TT (edited 10-16-1999).]

[Minotaur]

Wow! I'm impressed with the response...

Looks like I hit the "I LOVE THIS GAME" cliche, with a nice deflection shot. Test completed.

First off,  Thanks for all for the feedback.  An agin pardon, my dry humor.

ESP Crisis for your advice, I am still working on it.  30 hours in this so far and I still can't take off reliably.

Weazel no thanks.  I want to test the BETA "as is". Maybe I mis-understood Weazel, but I did not know F4U had a back seat.

Indian, you sure you want me in Texas?  I'm only a boy, and you want me to do a man's job?  Nonetheless send me a plane ticket and I'll be off. <G>  Is there any free beer in the deal?

The one that made sense the most was Leanid.

OK guys tough one here, paradigme shift.

What is realistic?  Or just change that to "Hardcore Sim".  To make it "Realistic" you eventually just build the airplane, put the pilot in it, and say "Here ya go, Buddy Boy!".

When the game goes online and I pay my $29.95 per month.  I guess I better build a bigger driveway for my new P51 (I always wanted one).  Is fuel and armament included?

Now,how do you model this and make it enjoyable?

This is BETA   ---->  I get to try and change it the way I want it to be, not the way everyone else wants it to be.

Therefore, I strive for Relative Realism, staring for hours at my Computer Monitor. (Sheesh no tan) I only hope to challenge, remove or change modeling issues that take out of the "This is not fun".  Don't get me wrong, I love being realistic.

Market wise, I figure this game will be targeted for the Warbirds / Falcon 4.0 mindset.  At $29.95, unlimited play, it is affordable for guys like me, and THAT gets me excited.  HOTAS HOTAS, not that stick dummy! <G>

I am assuming HTC wants to turn a profit, not just turn out code.

AH will lure percentages away for the other Multi-player Flights Sims.  Also, create its own following, as demostrated by the major mindset in this forum.

It not will attract people who want to fly, have the bucks, but crash 61 times on their 1st 62 take offs.

It will not attract people without the patience or mindset to wait 3 month's to fly anything remotely resembling "Hardcore Sim Flying".  I paid my $29.95 I want to have fun NOW or at least soon.  This is the more common motto.

Their gonna get torqued off, find somewhere else to play, and 12 guys will be in the arena.

To quote Zanth, "Make it fun, and they will come."  Why do suppose the torque, trim model is already clipped.

Flame On;
Mino

[koala]

Minotaur,

Takeoffs - Are you using rudder pedals or keyboard rudder?  A smooth, slow throttle up with rudder pedals and the takeoffs are really pretty straightforward.

Landings - My biggest problem with landings is I think the FM needs some real work with the drag component.  The decel is way too slow after throttle down, especially in relatively level flight.  You have to rely on full flaps more than you may in real life.  Still, after some practice, it ain't too bad.

ko

[weazel]

 

Weazel no thanks. I want to test the BETA "as is". Maybe I mis-understood Weazel, but I did not know F4U had a back seat

???????????????????????????????????????

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[miko2d]

 Minotaur, after flying in WB for about a year I tried T-6 Texan for the first time in my life.
 It was extremely familiar, everything was the same during straight flying and all the aerobatic maneuvers - rolls, loops, barells, cuban-8, wingovers and unbalanced flying.

 A plane does not fly straight. With a slightest change of speed or RPM or altitude it starts to roll and pitch and yaw without any input from a pilot. It does fly a bit sidewise unless the rudder is perfectly trimmed.
 That sidewise flying is actually the easiest one to ignore if it does not pitch or roll at the same time. Unless you care about the extra air resistance and loss of speed. Or need to shoot or even better, land - then it helps a lot if a plane is pointed in the same direction it is flying.
 Since I did neither shooting nor landing, I cannot tell you how significantly it is affected, but everything else was exactly like WB. T-6 handles very much like a Zero or an empty Hurricane (being very light with no armor, weapons or ammo).

 Hang on, it does take a few weeks. Also get rudder pedals if you do not have them.

Good luck!
miko--
 

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 10-16-1999).]

[214CaveJ]

I dinnae about the trim issue.  It seems to me that it's a little over modeled.  Granted I've only been up in Cessna 172s.

It seems to me to that the birds take too much trim to keep straight.  Indian mentioned the F4U Corsair which is coming soon.  The trim settings for the corsair are 6 degrees right rudder, 6 degrees right wing down, and 1 degree up elevator (taken from 1944 b/w movie about flying the corsair) to account for left wing heaviness due to engine torque.  The birds in AH seem to need more trim than that.

For those interested you can watch the vids, in .ram format, at 214th WWII Mueseum in the WW2 Mueseum-Warbirds section.  There are vids for several aircraft, including the -51D.

[aircat]

 ok untill the trim model is fully up to par. for take offs try this... in a spit start engine, apply full engine as soon as you start to roll (it'll try to go left) hit right rudder JUST A TOUCH, then you guessed it, apply speed trim and let go of the stick... rolling strait down the runway. when you get towards teh end hold down the "K" key then lightly pull back to break the auto pilot control and start a gentle lift and retract gear. this also works in the 109. the 51D has a habbit of spinning left circles for some reason.

as you your marble example... add a torque effect to the marble. or think of golf if you are one or understand it. you take the ball and apply back spin or side spin the ball will curve in flight and upon landing any back spin will catch the ground and either dead stop or roll back towards you depending on how much spin is applied. Billards example; apply spin buy hitting towards the side or bottom of the ball it will spin and when it contacts something it will change its angle from the standard goemetric course. thsi is how trick shots are made such as the "Masse' ". the torque is simular in planes but its comes fromt he engine and/or prop. when we get the P-38s (eventualy) it will have counter rotating props to reduce this effect. and rookies, newbies, dweebs or what ever you want to call them will be able to fly these with relitive ease. the Mustang is much harder in this respect to figure as they have wing tanks and as one empties even at same alt and speed as 10 minutes ago you will be off trim due to weight.

the F4U (Ensign eleminator) had such tremendous torque that if you applied full throtle at once starting take off it would spin the plane over onto the left side. and on landing if shut off suddenly or and trim was still set to fight the torque it would suddenly roll right. as also if they trimmed for low power and then reapplied on approach it would roll hard left and several times drop it on its canopy.

yes modern pleasure craft (simular to what I learned in) are easy to fly and turn, as designed. (my instructer was an WWII pilot and had an old kittyhawk in the quansit along with a few still flyable WWI planes). he said that the planes he learned in (the very same kitty hawk) was moch more to handle. and as someone mentioned on another post, take a modern pleasure craft and add armor (LOTS of it) ammunition and several guns. put in as big as engine as you can (lower power so cubic inch back then) put in more gear and gauges. you just took the little wonderfull easy to fly plane and tripled or quad'ed the weight (if not more in some cases). you are also unbalanced and over torqued. many of the planes from this era are still in original condition. others have been stripped down of most of the armor giving better more high tech props guns and ammo removed enginges changed and better balance givin overall. and turned into racing or stunt craft. what used to be hard for the fighters 55 years ago is now rather simple.
(BTW this was in no intent to flame or degrade anyone)

[Jekyll]

Minotaur, your comments about 'planes are designed to fly straight and level' does not necessarily apply to fighter aircraft.

Commercial aircraft value stability over maneuverability... that's why private light aircraft are often high-wing, high dihedral jobs like the Cessna etc.  These planes are VERY stable in flight.

Fighter aircraft, however, place a very high value on maneuverability.  You don't see many high wing WW2 fighters in the air, do you?

The more maneuverable an aircraft, the less stable it is, and the less stable it is, the more it will be affected by even minor variations in airspeed, CG balance etc.

So I would expect these aircraft to be very sensitive to out of trim conditions, and from what I've seen so far of AH, the FM seems pretty damn good to me.

Only thing I have a complaint about is rudder response ... I'd dearly love a tad more low speed authority for hammerheads etc.

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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm
'feel the heat .......'

[Curly]

 I think what the his bovineness is actually looking for is here:
 http://www.starwars-descent-asteroids-suspendallgravityandreality.com
 
and of course the requisite hacks are to be found here:
 http://www.dump-it-down-to-the-slowest-common-denominator.dufusville

 --Curly

[This message has been edited by Curly (edited 10-16-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Curly (edited 10-16-1999).]

[Minotaur]

Curly;

<Snip>
I think what the his bovineness is actually looking for is here:
<Snip>

I'm not sure what bovinenes means.  I construe it to be a derogitory comment about myself.  Maybe raising a chuckle or two.

If you want realistic accuracy, then many issues remain.  Gun recoil and susequent, E loss.  Engine smoke, why is my plane so clean, including weapon damage effects.  Autopilot and the concessions made for gameplay.  Digital indications for weapons load.  FM and the concessions made for gameplay.  I can go on, but I might not fit your model of "realism".

For future reference, it is Mr. Bovineness, if you please.   Thanks

All others:

For any other people that offered me help, thanks again. It has paid off.  50 hours of play and I can get the darn thing into the air.

The P51 is by far the hardest to get airborne, using 95% of the runway.  For me to launch the 51, I'm using almost full right rudder.  I only know that I am airborne when I get that nice little right spiral, that tries to take me back into the ground.  The 109 and LA5 are airborne at about 60% of the runway, and are much easier (WB style difficulty).

I still maintain the point, that this level of difficulty only adds gameplay for the minority of potential users.  Allot of, would be subscribers will be turned off.

BTW flying the canyons is totally cool.

Thanks again;
Mino