Author Topic: Steve, your icon request has been implemented (Read 2087 times)

SlapShot · « **Reply #30 on:** June 28, 2004, 11:39:44 AM »

As far as a range indicator, I think its NOT needed. At all. Use + and - icons next ot the plane name to show your rate of closure. I say this because you can tell the distance between you and your target by using simple eyesight..if its a dot then its beyond 6.0 , if its in d4.0 or closer you use your gunsight to compare the 'size' of target to your own gunsight...just like real ww2 pilots did.

I doubt very strongly that "real" WW II pilots turned nose to every target to get the object in question into the HUD view to compare the size of their target.

Simply using eyesight ... How would you like to give me your eyballs to use cause mine are old and tired and suffer from presbyopia. I wasn't wild about the new AH II icon system but was willing to live with. The + and - have now made it a much more enjoyable experience for me, but forget about what I need or other that may suffer from old eyeballs and maybe worse. We all need to bow to the "realism" junkies so that THEY can enjoy the game.

You know what ... Hit CNTRL-I until it says "Icons Off". That should make it more enjoyable for you without impacting anybody elses enjoyment.

Or something similar. I just dont like to be given instant info on everything around me..it makes for poor gameplay since it removes the ability of the 'bounce' because in AH1 and now even in AH2, all you need to do is do snap-views, scan each view of the sky for like .1 seconds and one instantly knows that 2 of the 3 planes behind you are enemy and are at X range, above and to all sides theres X number of enemies and their exact info... it just no fun at all.

There is no other sim out there that can even compete with the naturalness of the AH view system. I can assure you that I can move my head around in RL as fast as I can in AH so there is nothing wrong with the implementation IMO. As far as all the info one can glean from their views ... without that, this game is dead. Again, if it doesn't suit YOUR needs, then turn the icons off and have a blast, but don't presume that your idea of fun is exactly the same as mine.

Again, in ww2ol even with their ****ty flight model, its the icon system that makes the game so immersive in the air.. that dot on your 3 oc .. squint your eyes at it for a few seconds and a pale icon comes out and lets you know if its hostile or not..but no exact info on range or anything.. but whoa! con at 9 oc is enemy! You turn to it, you realize you are closing on it (target image becomes slightly larger) dive under his wings to come up from his belly... and all the time the enemy pilot did not spot you ..all because he was not able to snap view to his high 3 oc and instantly see the big bad enemy icon..he was jumped. and died because he had no wingman that helped him scan the sky.

Again, I don't get the problem with the views. Are you saying that in RL if I was attacking at my 9, his 3, if the spirit moved him, he could not snap his head to his 3 and see me coming. Was there something attached to the helmets of WW II pilots that prevented them from scanning the skys as fast as there neck would allow ?

dedalos · « **Reply #31 on:** June 28, 2004, 04:10:14 PM »

New icon idea. How about, no range. Just the name of the bad guy in red, so we know its a bad guy and react to who he is differently.

For example if you see:
p47-Frenchy, Spit Levi, SlapShot anything, b17 tater or ### dude, p51 Steve etc, you can just bail and claim that the screen locked up.

Xargos · « **Reply #32 on:** June 28, 2004, 04:48:49 PM »

That would be nice if when you got within, say 50 yards, you could see who you were fighting. In real combat, pilots could recognize the markings of his opponent when they got real close.

OIO · « **Reply #33 on:** June 28, 2004, 06:53:24 PM »

"We all need to bow to the "realism" junkies so that THEY can enjoy the game."

Nothing personal slapshot, but i believed thats the purpose of this game. Realism. Why aren't you playing fighter ace or something that doesnt try to accurately portray ww2 air combat?

"You know what ... Hit CNTRL-I until it says "Icons Off". That should make it more enjoyable for you without impacting anybody elses enjoyment."

For the same reason you wouldn't go to war with a paintball gun.

"There is no other sim out there that can even compete with the naturalness of the AH view system. I can assure you that I can move my head around in RL as fast as I can in AH so there is nothing wrong with the implementation IMO."

Really? Under how many G's can you see in all directions in a split second?

"As far as all the info one can glean from their views ... without that, this game is dead."

WW2OL proves you incorrect (icon system).

"Again, I don't get the problem with the views. Are you saying that in RL if I was attacking at my 9, his 3, if the spirit moved him, he could not snap his head to his 3 and see me coming. Was there something attached to the helmets of WW II pilots that prevented them from scanning the skys as fast as there neck would allow ?"

Nothing attached to their necks no. But im pretty sure pilots didnt glance to their 3 or 9 positions, saw a silver shape of an airplane and instantenously knew the plane type, the near exact distance between the 2 of them and of course, didnt know if it was friend or foe. And again, I point you to WW2OL's icon system.. with its fade in/out system depending on how long you look at that part of the sky, without giving exact distance to target... those 2 things alone make a crappy arcadish sim into a very immersive and much more realistic (as far as bouncing and air-to-air tactics) than AH's.

Which is ironical.. one game has very realistic modelling but uses an arcade icon system..the other has an arcade modelling but uses an icon system that more accurately simulates what a pilot experienced back then.

SLO · « **Reply #34 on:** June 28, 2004, 07:40:37 PM »

Steve my ol pal right wing nutcase......how you doin bud.

jokin BTW....don't go freak-a-zoid on me now:D

I started in BETA cause I knew the changes would make for some practice time......

now that I do have that said practice time.....I've put the damn icons so small all i see is a red dot.....

RED DOT = Kill the bastage

I don't need no stinking 400 600 800 yards lazer guided finder anymore.....just takes awhile to coordinate visual and hands.....kinda makes it fun and different then AH1.

anyways, why would you need icon range...your a rook....what you need is a powerful Telescope to look down from space:rofl

Burnm · « **Reply #35 on:** June 29, 2004, 03:27:40 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by OIO
"We all need to bow to the "realism" junkies so that THEY can enjoy the game."

Nothing personal slapshot, but i believed thats the purpose of this game. Realism. Why aren't you playing fighter ace or something that doesnt try to accurately portray ww2 air combat?

Quote

Originally posted by Burnm
How can you even talk about realism when youve got spits fightin spits??lol

SlapShot · « **Reply #36 on:** June 29, 2004, 04:24:39 PM »

Nothing personal slapshot, but i believed thats the purpose of this game. Realism. Why aren't you playing fighter ace or something that doesnt try to accurately portray ww2 air combat?

Nothing personal taken. You have your opinion and I have mine.

Realism ... please ... take a look at the game in total. Far from realism and if it was realistic it would be dead.

There has to be a balance between enjoyment and realism ... I trust HTCs decisions in this area and only voice my opinions when I think that the "realism" junkies lobby for stuff that goes over the line.

For the same reason you wouldn't go to war with a paintball gun.

That make no sense. You want realism, then shut off the icons. Thats real.

Really? Under how many G's can you see in all directions in a split second?

Splitting hairs I see. No sim can simulate that effect. You know exactly what I was getting at. Don't cloud the point with another requirement.

WW2OL proves you incorrect (icon system).

Never seen it so I can't comment on that. What I was referring to was the smoothness of the viewing system allowing one to scan the sky naturally and efficiently ... not icon information.

Nothing attached to their necks no. But im pretty sure pilots didnt glance to their 3 or 9 positions, saw a silver shape of an airplane and instantenously knew the plane type, the near exact distance between the 2 of them and of course, didnt know if it was friend or foe. And again, I point you to WW2OL's icon system.. with its fade in/out system depending on how long you look at that part of the sky, without giving exact distance to target... those 2 things alone make a crappy arcadish sim into a very immersive and much more realistic (as far as bouncing and air-to-air tactics) than AH's.

Your pretty sure ? ... so your not positve. Then its just compete conjecture on your part ... right ? Sorry, that doesn't really cut for me.

I could say ...

I am pretty sure pilots did glance to their 3 or 9 positions, saw a silver shape of an airplane and instantenously knew the plane type, the near exact distance between the 2 of them and of course, didnt know if it was friend or foe.

... and you would take that as fact and I would now convince you otherwise ... I don't think so.

So the fade in/out was something that they had in WW II ? That alone, if I understand it correctly is a que as to closure/separation, without distance numbers. Is this something that was available to the pilots in WW II ? If not, then its not really "real" ergo its "gamey".

or is it ...

More "realistic" than what AH is showing ? Thats got to be it ? Right ?

Mountains out of Molehills !!!

Morpheus · « **Reply #37 on:** June 29, 2004, 06:24:04 PM »

Quote

This is a step in the right direction, I'd like to see the old system restored entirely.

ditto...

deSelys · « **Reply #38 on:** June 30, 2004, 07:10:26 AM »

Some people just can't adapt to change.

The new icon system is much better IMO. It compensates for the lack of 3D view without giving superhuman accuracy to the estimation of distance.

I come from WB (2.7x). I learned since the beginning to use an icon system similar to what we have now.
Proof is, I had my first fight in AH2 2 nights ago. I landed 3 kills with my G6, and i'm far from a hotshot. The new icon system hasn't bothered me one bit.

If some old AH1 'aces' are now unable to hit the broad side of a barn, it just means that they were somehow 'gaming the game' by using the laser rangefinder accuracy of the old icon system.
They'll adapt or they'll quit....either way I don't care.

SlapShot · « **Reply #39 on:** June 30, 2004, 08:43:25 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by deSelys
Some people just can't adapt to change.

The new icon system is much better IMO. It compensates for the lack of 3D view without giving superhuman accuracy to the estimation of distance.

I come from WB (2.7x). I learned since the beginning to use an icon system similar to what we have now.
Proof is, I had my first fight in AH2 2 nights ago. I landed 3 kills with my G6, and i'm far from a hotshot. The new icon system hasn't bothered me one bit.

If some old AH1 'aces' are now unable to hit the broad side of a barn, it just means that they were somehow 'gaming the game' by using the laser rangefinder accuracy of the old icon system.
They'll adapt or they'll quit....either way I don't care.

I don' think you get it.

The old AH I icons system put those who can see well and those who can't on a level playing field when it came to judging closure/separation.

When HT introduced the new icon system, those who don't see well (like me) were shackled when it came to judging closure/separation. The addition of the + - indicator has now put us back on a level playing field.

I don't consider myself an "ace", but I have had no real problems at getting kills at all in AH II, and it has nothing to do with the icons or "gaming the game". Gunnery itself has changed and it has nothing to do at all with icons.

I only need to know closure/separation (more closure) at the onset of the fight. Once the fight is on, I don't even see the icon indicators anymore, I watch your wings. If I get on your 6, you will die, and it won't be because of the icon or its indicators.

deSelys · « **Reply #40 on:** June 30, 2004, 09:58:45 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by SlapShot

...
The old AH I icons system put those who can see well and those who can't on a level playing field when it came to judging closure/separation.
...

BS...The $$$ you paid for your monitor have a much greater influence than the quality of your eyeballs Mk I.

I'll probably sound harsh: if you have trouble to evaluate your rate of closure because of your eyesight, buy yourself a nice big monitor. If you cant' afford it...well this is sad for you, but why should the game have to be tuned down to be accessible to a few? If we start down this road, I see no reason not to tune down the FM as well so the guys flying with a mouse because they can't afford a joystick will be put on a level playing field with those who can.

SlapShot · « **Reply #41 on:** June 30, 2004, 10:27:03 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by deSelys
BS...The $$$ you paid for your monitor have a much greater influence than the quality of your eyeballs Mk I.

I'll probably sound harsh: if you have trouble to evaluate your rate of closure because of your eyesight, buy yourself a nice big monitor. If you cant' afford it...well this is sad for you, but why should the game have to be tuned down to be accessible to a few? If we start down this road, I see no reason not to tune down the FM as well so the guys flying with a mouse because they can't afford a joystick will be put on a level playing field with those who can.

I have a 20 inch Sony Trinitron Monitor at 100Mhz refresh so it's not the monitor.

Harsh ... no ... selfish ... absolutely.

I believe that HT's intention is to provide Aces High to the masses. That would include people that have trouble seeing.

You obviously speak from a higher ground and have no clue as to what its like not to see "perfectly" so your observations are slightly biased. I use to see "perfectly". I had 20/10 vision up until I got into my 40s, and at that point I started to lose the ability to see clearly, close up.

I don't wish this upon you at all, but if the day comes that you do experience what I now deal with, you will sing a whole different tune ... guaranteed !!!

Don't confuse dealing with the FM with the ability to see. Handling the FM is pure feel and understanding. Some do it better than others, but it is never really hampered by physical inabilities. And if you haven't noticed, there is the "stall limiter" to dumb down the FM for those that feel they need it.

Don't be such a smart-ass with this "buy" crap. I CAN'T buy a new set of eyes to put me on a level playing field with you. Last I knew nobody has even tried eyeball transplants.

Also, there is no operation at this point in time that will fix presbyopia (they are working on one) otherwise I would have already had it done.

Like I said above ... harsh ... no ... selfish ... absolutely.

deSelys · « **Reply #42 on:** June 30, 2004, 10:47:52 AM »

Selfish, ok....I'm guilty.

I'm honestly sorry for what you're going through. And I sincerely hope that a cure, or any kind of improvement will be available to you in a near future.

But where does it stop then? Why make this game impossible to play to people with worse vision problems than you, with low reaction time, or extremely bad eye-hand coordination... Should vox have to disappear to allow deaf people to play without missing messages from their countrymates? Would you agree with this, or are you just interested with specific adjustments which suit you.

I'm all for fixes or workarounds allowing people with disabilities to enjoy the game (like the configurable icon colors for colorblind people) as long as it doesn't tune down what I consider to be a complex but rewarding game.

But if HTC comes with another solution allowing you to be on a level playground with us (for instance a combination of WWIIOL fading icons, +/- rate of closure indicator and 100-200-300... range numbers) I'm all for it.

Xargos · « **Reply #43 on:** June 30, 2004, 10:57:16 AM »

I know what you mean Slapshot. I had cataracts in both my eyes and had the surgery in the 1970's. Needless to say alot of scar tissue was left and I'm very lucky to have the vision I have, for both my sister & mother are blind because of this. I also have Iritis in both my eyes and that causes me to get bad headaches. I have been in so much pain that I've had Atropine injections in my eyes to stop the burning. People who joke about such things have no idea. They better pray to God it does not happen to them.

SlapShot · « **Reply #44 on:** June 30, 2004, 11:21:38 AM »

Selfish, ok....I'm guilty.

Great ... If you know it ... then stop it.

I'm honestly sorry for what you're going through. And I sincerely hope that a cure, or any kind of improvement will be available to you in a near future.

Me too ... more than you can imagine.

But where does it stop then? Why make this game impossible to play to people with worse vision problems than you, with low reaction time, or extremely bad eye-hand coordination... Should vox have to disappear to allow deaf people to play without missing messages from their countrymates? Would you agree with this, or are you just interested with specific adjustments which suit you.

There is a point at which sacrafices cannot be made ... that I agree on, but fail to believe that the introduction of the +/- indicator is anywhere near that point.

There is nothing that HT can do for people that have low reaction time and bad hand-eye coordination. Again, those are things that can be improved upon with practice. I can't practice better eye sight.

As far as Vox ... we have text radio channel that handles any problems with not being able to hear. I was here before Vox became a reality so I know that works. I had an incident last week where I was screaming on Vox for a guy to check his 6. He never made a move and was killed. Next thing I see on local channel was "Thanks for the check 6". I told him that I warned him at least a half-a-dozen times. He types back ... "I am deaf so I could not hear you". I felt like crap assuming that everybody could hear. My use of the check 6 button, in conjunction with vox, since that incident, has risen dramtically.

Would you agree with this, or are you just interested with specific adjustments which suit you.

Again your being a smart-ass. No need for it. If there were other physical handicaps that prevent people from playing this game on a level playing field, and I owned the game, I would be more than willing to listen and not have a selfish and myopic view of how this game should be played.