Author Topic: Slaughtering Prisoners in Iraqi Jails (Read 2486 times)

Crumpp · « **Reply #90 on:** June 30, 2004, 04:52:34 PM »

Nobody is denying these few soldiers went way over and beyond the Guidence put out. They will pay the price.

You are making some false claims though without the full facts at hand based just off what you have read from such sources as "Anti-War.com".

1. There is no evidence proving any US servicemember BEAT any prisoner to death. We are going to have to wait for the legal process of a Democracy to run it's course.

2. You are attempting to paint an incidence of Abuse as a policy of abuse.

The media is not only biased but much of the time flat out wrong. Least that's been my experience being involved in several headline making events. Remember Reporters are just one person writing about an event based on second and third hand information. Just because it's in print does not make it true.

Just ask yourself what makes more sense? Do you really believe all Military and Government personnel are goose-stepping Nazi's who enjoy war and love inflicting pain?

Or is it that the vast majority of those in the service are good folks who have the courage of their convictions and really believe in Justice and Liberty for All?

Here is a good quote that is just as applicable today as it was in Teddy's time:
==============================================
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, and comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.
==============================================

http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/3745/tr.html

Crumpp

Crumpp · « **Reply #91 on:** June 30, 2004, 05:11:03 PM »

-Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;

- Chemlights are non-toxic. We used to load squirt guns with it when I was a young private. Turn out the lights and have squirt gun fights in the barracks. The bad guys didn't know that though but thanks to the media they do now.

Crumpp

Dago · « **Reply #92 on:** June 30, 2004, 05:25:51 PM »

Why argue with Thrawn? He already has proven his anti-American hatred that will forever prevent him from being objective.

I guess it stems from both his mental instability and having to live in a militarily impotent country.

Hoping some day he gets the therapy/counseling he needs.

First Iraq, then Canada!

dago

Nash · « **Reply #93 on:** June 30, 2004, 05:28:16 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Crumpp
-Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;

- Chemlights are non-toxic. We used to load squirt guns with it when I was a young private. Turn out the lights and have squirt gun fights in the barracks. The bad guys didn't know that though but thanks to the media they do now.
Crumpp

Now give us the neat anecdote where you stuck these lights up eachother's arses and had a good laugh about it.

Crumpp · « **Reply #94 on:** June 30, 2004, 05:38:30 PM »

That's good Nash! Remember the US Army is don't ask don't tell...

Dago bro,
It is a Democracy and he is in entitled to his opinion no matter how outlandish a the conspiracy theory! As long as you don't get in the way of others folks pursuit of happiness he can spout whatever drivel he wants.

On the other hand....

Maybe South Park had it right!! Invade Canada NOW!!:aok

Crumpp

Thrawn · « **Reply #95 on:** June 30, 2004, 05:40:42 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Crumpp
1. There is no evidence proving any US servicemember BEAT any prisoner to death. We are going to have to wait for the legal process of a Democracy to run it's course.

According the Navy Seals and Delta force the victim didn't have any wounds when he was turned over to the CIA. The CIA said there were, one of them is lying. The medical examiner determined that he died of "blunt force injuries complicated by compromised respiration,". This occured in prison where, according to Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba's report, interagators: punched, slapped, kicked, and beat the detainees with broomsticks and chairs. There is enough evidence for the US military to press charges. I think based on this information it's safe to say he was beaten to death, unless you have a more plausible explanation.

Quote

2. You are attempting to paint an incidence of Abuse as a policy of abuse.

I'm not even touching that issue. What I'm attempting to demonstrate is that this happened. And it's a far cry from a "hazing ritual".

Quote

Do you really believe all Military and Government personnel are goose-stepping Nazi's who enjoy war and love inflicting pain?

Not at all.

Quote

Or is it that the vast majority of those in the service are good folks who have the courage of their convictions and really believe in Justice and Liberty for All?

I'm sure they are.

Quote

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better.

I think it's ludicrous to try and mariginalise these incidents, as "stumbling". "Oops, I beat a man to death, could have happened to anyone.". These relatively few people certainly aren't good folk, nor do they really believe in Justice and Liberty for all.

Nash · « **Reply #96 on:** June 30, 2004, 05:41:45 PM »

Aboot... SKATE!

Gloves.... OFF!

Hockey sticks at the ready!!!

Crumpp · « **Reply #97 on:** June 30, 2004, 05:57:40 PM »

No these very few folks are not good people and will pay the price. Some of them already have plead guilty and are in prison NOW. What do you want the US to do with the others? Rush them to the nearest tree and hang them? They are innocent until PROVEN guilty and entitled to due process.

You keep claiming that there is some medical evidence on that one case. Please produce it.

I saw arrest's being made on that one. That is definately NOT the story circulating in the community. I think you better wait on the trial on that one and not hang folks prematurely. The doctor who examined him and the dead mans family are testifying for the defense.

Crumpp

Oops, No need for the Hockey Stick Nash

Crumpp · « **Reply #98 on:** June 30, 2004, 07:08:49 PM »

==============================================

I think it's ludicrous to try and mariginalise these incidents, as "stumbling". "Oops, I beat a man to death, could have happened to anyone.". These relatively few people certainly aren't good folk, nor do they really believe in Justice and Liberty for all.

==============================================

The quote from Roosevelt is generalization. More of a philosphy for life. It's interesting that you took it as a specific answer to these events.

Go ahead and tell us what you think the US should do now? Do you think we have lost legitimacy in Iraq? Are you one of those who think we never had legitimacy in Iraq? Do you think the world would have been safer place with Saddam in power and an area the size of Rhode Island under the control of Al-Queada on the Iraqi / Iran border?

Why do you think the media does not print the truth about the bad guys we are encountering? The majority of them are not Iraqi's or Afghani's in either country. Most of them are Saudi's, Jordanians, Chechen's, and other Arabs.

Crumpp

Thrawn · « **Reply #99 on:** June 30, 2004, 07:28:19 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Crumpp
You keep claiming that there is some medical evidence on that one case. Please produce it.

Crumpp, you were in the military right? Can you please tell me who determines cause of death in the military?

Crumpp · « **Reply #100 on:** June 30, 2004, 08:31:19 PM »

Depends.

Only a Doctor can determine that a death has occurred. One of the guys in my unit took a bullet in the back of the head in an ambush. Blew his whole face off. Our Medic did not pronounce him dead and called his vital signs in and we medevac'd him. The Unit Medically retired him before the bird landed and a doctor pronounced him dead. His wife and kids get more benefits that way. He was good man, and a good friend.

IF the family wants and autopsy then the body will be sent to Walter Reed and one is performed. Usually these are not detailed autopsy's but general. Do you know the difference? Not to insult your intelligence but a general autopsy is about the same as cleaning a fish. The body is opened and the organs given a cursory examination. Certain organs are weighed and a couple of tissue samples are taken and checked out. Whole process takes about 10 minutes. A detailed Autopsy is a whole different ball game. It can take days and is extremely expensive in lab time.

If no autopsy is requested then the attending physician's Medical report of Death will be the Examination and the Doctor will list what he believes to be cause of death.

For a bad guy then the nearest Medical Aid facility might perform it IF one was even ordered. Usually it will be an examination and not an actual autopsy. I will check and confirm this with the surgeon at work. I do know we photograph, DNA sample, and fingerprint every bad guy we kill to ensure they are in fact a bad guy.

Crumpp

Thrawn · « **Reply #101 on:** July 01, 2004, 01:41:31 AM »

Thank you for your explanation. I think I understand what you are saying. Do you know if the situation is different if criminal malfeasance is suspected?

Crumpp · « **Reply #102 on:** July 01, 2004, 07:17:30 AM »

Yes If criminal negligence was suspected the yes it would be different.

It's hard to say in this case. The Military was already investigating these incidents based on several soldiers complaints. So it is entirely possible that an autopsy was perfromed.

I do know the Doctor in the case you refer to is testifying for the defense. The man who was supposedly beaten to death had a heart condition and died of a heart attack.

I suspect many of the "beatings" will turn out to be capture wounds if they actually did an autopsy. It's been my experience that PUC's are generally cooperative in the first few minutes of giving up. After that they begin to "have second thoughts" when the hood and cuffs come out. It's understandable, it must be frightening especially when you believe some of the utter lies about the West that they do. Anyway sometimes that's when the fight breaks out.

Crumpp