Author Topic: Slaughtering Prisoners in Iraqi Jails  (Read 2491 times)

Offline NUTTZ

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Slaughtering Prisoners in Iraqi Jails
« Reply #75 on: June 29, 2004, 12:01:09 PM »
I feel really bad for our boys over in Iraq, I know "IF" I were there I would be courtmartialed just for using up so much ammo.

It is a real shame our soldiers have their hands tied behind their backs. I feel bad for the position our soldiers are in.

I had a guy come into my store last week, he wanted the word "Vietnam" embroidered over a jacket he had brought in that was a generic "veterans" satin jacket. When I gave it back to him done, and didn't charge him, he acually cried and said "Nobody EVER did anything like that for him."  It was nothing for me , but seamed to be alot to him. When he thanked me, I told him it was I who should be thanking him. It really is a shame, even when they do their tour ( which is almost endless at this point), they return to a mixture of peoples emotions , some not so savory.

NUTTZ

 
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
There will be a price to pay for murdering marines or soldiers horrifically on video. Their comptratiots will likely pay it when they attempt to surrender after a fierce fight.

Offline NUTTZ

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Slaughtering Prisoners in Iraqi Jails
« Reply #76 on: June 29, 2004, 12:07:03 PM »
Really? I did not know this. You are saying "IF" I was captured , and killled an enemy guard while escaping I could be charged for murder by my own military? I thought it would be MY DUTY to try to escape.  Maybe I just watched too many old war flicks.

NUTTZ

Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
For one thing,

 
If you are captured and attempt to escape.  In the process kill a guard, IT IS MURDER.  You will be charged upon your repatriation in the US Army.   Whenever a former POW is debriefed the first thing that occurs is he read his miranda rights just to cover such an incident so an arrest can be made.

 
Crumpp

Offline Thrawn

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Slaughtering Prisoners in Iraqi Jails
« Reply #77 on: June 29, 2004, 12:19:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saurdaukar
No, not at all.  When one jumps to comdemn the United States for taking pictures but fails to comdemn terrorists for beheading civilians people tend to form an opinion not unlike the one posted above.


When one tries to misrepresent a point and call beating someone to death "taking picutres" people tend to form an opinion of the poster.  Unless you have reading comprehension you would see that I wasn't condeming the US for taking pictures, but for beating a prisoner to death.  

Lack of a condemnation does mean approval.  I haven't seen you post you don't like N'Sync in this thread, therefore you do?  No it just mean you have chosen not to comment on it.  

But for what it's worth, of course I find the beheadings morally repugnant.  Hell I think they are evil.  What I find interesting though is that people seem to have forgotten that neutrality is a ligetimate position for a country or person to take.  Heck the War of 1812 was fought because the British and French didn't respect US neutrality in thier war.

I have enough presence of mind to find both the beheadings and the beating death wrong.  It's not like I have to believe that because one is wrong the other has to be right.

Offline FUNKED1

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Slaughtering Prisoners in Iraqi Jails
« Reply #78 on: June 29, 2004, 12:26:15 PM »
Thrawn, you've presented no evidence of the cause of that guy's death.  For you to assume (with zero evidence) that the guy was beaten to death, but then question whether the VIDEOTAPED beheadings actually happened, that's what makes me question your intelligence and/or sincerity.

Offline Saurdaukar

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« Reply #79 on: June 29, 2004, 01:30:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
When one tries to misrepresent a point and call beating someone to death "taking picutres" people tend to form an opinion of the poster.  Unless you have reading comprehension you would see that I wasn't condeming the US for taking pictures, but for beating a prisoner to death.  


So you form opinions of those who attempt to misrepresent events to make a point?  You mean kinda like claiming that a prisoner was beaten to death without a single shread of any evidence?  

Quote
Lack of a condemnation does mean approval.  I haven't seen you post you don't like N'Sync in this thread, therefore you do?  No it just mean you have chosen not to comment on it.  


Thats because I LOVE N'SYNC!  JC is HOT!

Quote
But for what it's worth, of course I find the beheadings morally repugnant.  Hell I think they are evil.  What I find interesting though is that people seem to have forgotten that neutrality is a ligetimate position for a country or person to take.  Heck the War of 1812 was fought because the British and French didn't respect US neutrality in thier war.
[/b]

Neutrality is awesome if youre into playing both sides for your own advantage or lack the backbone to actually engage in any action that brings with it the possibility of failure.

Otherwise its pretty useless, IMO.

Quote
I have enough presence of mind to find both the beheadings and the beating death wrong.  It's not like I have to believe that because one is wrong the other has to be right.


Ok, so again - and remembering your first paragraph hinting that one shouldnt misrepresent facts to prove points - I bet youve seen a few of those nifty little videos of the bad guys cutting off the heads of bound humans.  Can you show me a video, a picture... or something other than your fantastic idea... that a prisoner was beat to death in a prison?

Aside from that - I dont think anyone has ever contested that the two 'wrongs' are mutually exclusive in terms of acceptability in your mind - they just require different levels of attention from you, thats all.

Offline Crumpp

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Slaughtering Prisoners in Iraqi Jails
« Reply #80 on: June 29, 2004, 06:19:32 PM »
Nuttz,

It is your duty to escape.  Resistance with honor and a duty to continue to resist are clearly spelled out in the Code of Conduct every US soldier has to abide by.

However, when you are captured and have relinquished your "means to resist", which is legalese for your weapon,  your legal status changes from a "combatant" to a "non-combatant".   This is why it is perfectly legal to shoot at paratroopers in their parachutes but is a war crime to shoot a fighter pilot after he has bailed out.

Non-combatants have rights and protection under both international law and the Geneva Convention.  Legally once you are a non-combatant only repatriation can restore your status as a combatant.  Non-combatants must be fed, clothed, and sheltered IAW the basic living standards of the citizens of the capturing country.  Non-combatants no longer have the right to use deadly force IAW the Rules of Engagement.  They do have the right to self defense.

Attempting to escape does not change your status once you are a non-combatant.  If you plan to kill a guard and carry it out, you have just committed MURDER.   You can kill a guard ONLY in clear cut self defense.  "He was going to recapture me" is NOT self defense.  

Code of Conduct
 
 
 
 
 
     
 
I

I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.

II

I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.

III

If I am captured, I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

IV

If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

V

When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.

VI

I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.

 
 
Crumpp

Offline Thrawn

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Slaughtering Prisoners in Iraqi Jails
« Reply #81 on: June 29, 2004, 10:32:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FUNKED1
Thrawn, you've presented no evidence of the cause of that guy's death. For you to assume (with zero evidence) that the guy was beaten to death,



Quote
Originally posted by Saurdaukar
You mean kinda like claiming that a prisoner was beaten to death without a single shread of any evidence?


No, not without a single shread of evidence.  The autopsy revealed that the prison, who was left off the records, was severly beaten before he died.  We know this happened sometime while he was under US care and control.

"In November, Frederick wrote, an Iraqi prisoner under the control of what the Abu Ghraib guards called “O.G.A.,” or other government agencies—that is, the C.I.A. and its paramilitary employees—was brought to his unit for questioning. “They stressed him out so bad that the man passed away. They put his body in a body bag and packed him in ice for approximately twenty-four hours in the shower. . . . The next day the medics came and put his body on a stretcher, placed a fake IV in his arm and took him away.” The dead Iraqi was never entered into the prison’s inmate-control system, Frederick recounted, “and therefore never had a number.”"

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact


And it's not the only case.  From my first link.

"In a second case, the CIA is being investigated for the death of Iraqi Gen. Abed Hamed Mowhoush near the Syrian border, also last November. The CIA says he died several days after they questioned him.

A third CIA prisoner died last June in Afghanistan — also after a severe beating"


Quote
Originally posted by FUNKED1
but then question whether the VIDEOTAPED beheadings actually happened, that's what makes me question your intelligence and/or sincerity.


I wasn't questioning the whether it happened.  I was comparing standards of evidence regarding who commited the crime.  It seems that neither of you even question whether Al-Zarqawi and Al-Qaida beheaded Berg, (based on video where a masked man claims to be him, yet you don't think that agents of the US government beat a man to death in Abu Ghraib.


Quote
Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Neutrality is awesome if youre into playing both sides for your own advantage or lack the backbone to actually engage in any action that brings with it the possibility of failure.

Otherwise its pretty useless, IMO..


That's not the only reason why someone might be neutral.  It might be that the situation has nothing to do with thier interests.  And I wasn't talking about the utility of neutrality, but the right to it.


Quote
Can you show me a video, a picture... or something other than your fantastic idea... that a prisoner was beat to death in a prison?


I'm surprise you haven't seen this yet, or that you and funked never even heard of this incident.  These pictures were orginally obtained by ABC news.  I won't display them for obvious reasons.

http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/dead-iraqi2.jpg

http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/dead-iraqi1.jpg

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/Investigation/abu_ghraib_photos_040519.html

Offline Crumpp

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Slaughtering Prisoners in Iraqi Jails
« Reply #82 on: June 30, 2004, 08:15:34 AM »
Anti-War DOT COM!!!!!

:rofl :rofl :rofl

Ohh yeah,  That is some unbiased reporting!!  Just the facts Friday just the facts!!  Hey it says here in "Pravda" that Communism will win the cold war.:rolleyes:

As for the New Yorker article, let's examine what it REALLY says:


As to autopsy reports - Sorry can't find any reference to an autopsy report at all.  Much less one claiming anyone was beaten to death.

There are reference's to the two Iraqi's on the examining tables in the photo.

==============================================

"Two Iraqi faces that do appear in the photographs are those of dead men. There is the battered face of prisoner No. 153399, and the bloodied body of another prisoner, wrapped in cellophane and packed in ice. There is a photograph of an empty room, splattered with blood."

==============================================

The empty room spattered in blood is the morgue.  Pretty Sinister Stuff.

==============================================

"A month later, General Karpinski was formally admonished and quietly suspended, and a major investigation into the Army’s prison system, authorized by Lieutenant General Ricardo S. Sanchez, the senior commander in Iraq, was under way."

==============================================

Gosh, Seems the Military was investigating the reports of abuse long before it hit the papers.  Sure glad that reporter hopped in made it all public.  The bad guys are pretty understanding about this sort of thing and won't take it out on any captives they have.  You know How a Free and Democratic Society needs watching.

==============================================

 “They stressed him out so bad that the man passed away. They put his body in a body bag and packed him in ice for approximately twenty-four hours in the shower. . . . "

==============================================

Stressed out is NOT beaten to death.  

Again what we have here is a media frenzy over the actions of a few miscreants.  One the Military was already investigating and taking action.  It was not made public for the following reasons:

1.  Concern for the Safety of those in Hostile captivity.

==============================================

"Similarly, Gary Myers, Frederick’s civilian attorney, told me that he would argue at the court-martial that culpability in the case extended far beyond his client. “I’m going to drag every involved intelligence officer and civilian contractor I can find into court,” he said. “Do you really believe the Army relieved a general officer because of six soldiers? Not a chance.”"

==============================================

With my paltry decade and a half of government service I would definately say without a doubt...

YES, the US Army would relieve a General over the actions of these six.  It already did so once before this ever made the papers.


Glad we live in a free country with Freedom of Speech that can be exercised without regard to consequences or social responsibility.  As long as papers get sold and the reporters politcs get through WHO cares about the truth!  There is an election coming up!
As much as the extreme liberal left would like to make this out to be an Evil systematic problem perpetuated by GW Bush it is in fact an isolated incident and a huge blight on the other 99.9 percent of the folks out there doing the right thing.  Many of them doing the right thing at extreme personal sacrifice.

Crumpp

Offline Thrawn

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Slaughtering Prisoners in Iraqi Jails
« Reply #83 on: June 30, 2004, 09:33:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Anti-War DOT COM!!!!!

:rofl :rofl :rofl

Ohh yeah,  That is some unbiased reporting!!  Just the facts Friday just the facts!!  Hey it says here in "Pravda" that Communism will win the cold war.:rolleyes:


You are trying to fit the facts into your paradigm instead of changing your world view to fit the facts.  I clearly stated, "These pictures were orginally obtained by ABC news.".  What's more I provide a link to the orginal ABC article which also provided the pictures.  I used the anti-war.com site so those that are interested didn't have to wait for the ABC site to load and go through the slide show.


Quote
With my paltry decade and a half of government service I would definately say without a doubt...


You might want to inform the US military of this experience when you tell about their mistake in ruling, "Abd al-Jalil’s death a homicide from “blunt force injuries and asphyxia".

- Chris Hansen, “Profile: death in custody; investigation into death of Iraqi detainee Kareem Abdul Jaleel reveals more prison atrocities, NBC News Transcripts, May 23, 2004.


And it looks like it was soldiers after all.

"The Pentagon also said those who interrogated him included members of an elite special forces unit, some of the most highly trained personnel in the U.S. military."

- Chris Hansen, “Profile: death in custody; investigation into death of Iraqi detainee Kareem Abdul Jaleel reveals more prison atrocities, NBC News Transcripts, May 23, 2004.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/usa0604/5.htm#_ftn81

Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Slaughtering Prisoners in Iraqi Jails
« Reply #84 on: June 30, 2004, 09:44:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by muckmaw
Terrorists wove taken an American Marine Hostage and threaten to kill him have demanded the release of prisoners in Iraqi jails.

I know we have to take the high road here, and I don;t necessarily agree with it.

But what if we sent them a video of the prisoners they want released with guns to THEIR heads.

Kill your prisoners, and we kill ours.

I already know what some of you are going to say....

The high road sux sometimes.


Like Captain Wesley Platt USMC said upon honroing Major Devereux's agreed surrender on Wake Island.  Platt set his .45 down with tears streaming down his face "Major, do you know what you are asking us to do?" "Marines don't surrender, Major let us die right here.  All of this was said within earshot of Japanese who were escorting Devereux around the island.

I say this, pull out of Iraq.  If not, at least save the region by dropping Fuel to Air explosives, Nukes would to too much to that oil over there.  

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Offline Embark

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Slaughtering Prisoners in Iraqi Jails
« Reply #85 on: June 30, 2004, 11:19:33 AM »
Quote
Like Captain Wesley Platt USMC said upon honroing Major Devereux's agreed surrender on Wake Island. Platt set his .45 down with tears streaming down his face "Major, do you know what you are asking us to do?" "Marines don't surrender, Major let us die right here. All of this was said within earshot of Japanese who were escorting Devereux around the island.


Marines don't ever surrender. It's just something you don't do. I would fight to my last breath. Out of ammo? Throw rocks or something. I cannot imagine how you would get into a situation where you would get captured. I would take as many of them with me when I went down. Almost all of us had hand grenades. Can't imagine why you wouldn't be able to take a couple with you.


Just my two cents.

Offline Crumpp

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Slaughtering Prisoners in Iraqi Jails
« Reply #86 on: June 30, 2004, 11:57:32 AM »
That's the insidious thing about propaganda Thrawn.  

It is all the truth and uses the facts.  So, what is really going on in the world?

1.  The United States is the great Satan and deserves Sept 11th.  Only wants to estabilish an empire and truly is a major violator of Human Rights.  Al-Queada has it right and only wants to live in peace with their neighbors.

2.  The United States was maliciously attacked and THOUSANDS of innocent civilians from around the world were killed to advance some obscure political agenda.  Now the US will no longer sit back but is taking the fight to the source.  The United States is one of the worlds premier democracies and really does stand for Freedom and Justice For All.


Empire building or self-defense?

Lets examine the Human Rights Watch report:

==============================================

Capt. Carolyn A. Wood, who oversaw interrogations at the Bagram detention center in Afghanistan where two prisoners died, apparently prepared the document titled “Interrogation Rules of Engagement” that was posted at Abu Ghraib. According to the document, certain interrogation methods could be undertaken, but only if the “CG’s” (Sanchez’s) approval was sought and obtained in writing. Depending on their actual application, these methods would violate the Geneva Conventions prohibitions against abusive and coercive treatment of detainees. They included:

Change of scenery down (moving to a more barren cell)
Dietary manipulation
Environmental manipulation
Sleep adjustment (reverse schedule)
Isolation for longer than 30 days
Presence of military working dogs
Sleep management (72 hours maximum)
Sensory deprivation (72 hours maximum)
Stress positions (no longer than 45 minutes)
The document also cautions that detainees “will NEVER be touched in a malicious or unwanted manner” and that the Geneva Conventions apply in Iraq.

==============================================

Change of Scenery - No different than Isolation cells in a civilian prison

Dietary Manipulation - Ok, so we don't feed them their favorite foods or pass out a Menu.  Their diet is monitored by a doctor and is healthy.  Can the bad guys make the same claim?  Course they probably don't have to worry, most folks don't eat that much without a head.

Environmental manipulation - Maybe we can install thermostats in every prisoner's room?  It's probably better to just shoot them when they don't obey the rules rather than just taking away their blankie.  I wonder if Pfc Keith Maulpin was cold as he knelt over the shallow grave he just dug before they put a bullet through the back of his skull?

Sleep adjustment - Well our folks are working 24/7 to bring this conflict to and end as quick as possible.  Sorry if the night shift has to wake few up.  The US should adjust to the prisoners sleep schedule and ensure they all get a tasty mint on their pillows in the morning.

Isolation for longer than 30 days - Yeah we should just put the hard core bad guys in with the poor schmucks who got lied too and just thought they were protecting their families.  That way they can organize and get even more people hurt.

Presence of Military Dogs - Same as Police dogs you will find at any US civilian prison.  Should we just shoot them when they become combative and not use non-lethal means?  Dogs are scary you know.

Sleep management (72 hours maximum)
Sensory deprivation (72 hours maximum)
Stress positions (no longer than 45 minutes) - Techniques reserved for the hard core bad guys.  Your right it is wrong to use them.  We should say "pretty pretty please" and get the information because these guys are the very definition of cordiality.

Notice the key phrase   "Depending on their actual application, these methods would violate the Geneva Conventions"

AND notice the legal Direct Order, which requires every service member to obey it.

General Sanchez ORDERS ARE PRISONERS,  “will NEVER be touched in a malicious or unwanted manner” and that the Geneva Conventions apply in Iraq.


The penalties for disobeying a direct order go anywhere from up to 20 years in prison to death in wartime.


Crumpp

Offline FUNKED1

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Slaughtering Prisoners in Iraqi Jails
« Reply #87 on: June 30, 2004, 12:00:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
You might want to inform the US military of this experience when you tell about their mistake in ruling, "Abd al-Jalil’s death a homicide from “blunt force injuries and asphyxia".

- Chris Hansen, “Profile: death in custody; investigation into death of Iraqi detainee Kareem Abdul Jaleel reveals more prison atrocities, NBC News Transcripts, May 23, 2004.


And it looks like it was soldiers after all.

"The Pentagon also said those who interrogated him included members of an elite special forces unit, some of the most highly trained personnel in the U.S. military."

- Chris Hansen, “Profile: death in custody; investigation into death of Iraqi detainee Kareem Abdul Jaleel reveals more prison atrocities, NBC News Transcripts, May 23, 2004.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/usa0604/5.htm#_ftn81


Oooh nice bait and switch.  We were specifically talking about Abu Gharib.  Jaleel/Jalil was never in that prison.  You still have not shown that anything worse than fraternity hazing pranks went on at Abu Gharib.


"You are trying to fit the facts into your paradigm instead of changing your world view to fit the facts."

Offline Saurdaukar

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Slaughtering Prisoners in Iraqi Jails
« Reply #88 on: June 30, 2004, 12:05:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FUNKED1

"You are trying to fit the facts into your paradigm instead of changing your world view to fit the facts."


Thats a good line (and applicable) - who is it from?

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #89 on: June 30, 2004, 02:35:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FUNKED1
Oooh nice bait and switch.  We were specifically talking about Abu Gharib.  Jaleel/Jalil was never in that prison.



Quote
You are trying to fit the facts into your paradigm instead of changing your world view to fit the facts."


Quite right.  My apologies for mixing up the names.  I can only hope you believe that it wasn't intentional, especially in light of two peoples deaths being ruled having the same cause.

"- Manadel Al-Jamadi, who was being held at Abu Ghraib, the Iraqi prison in which the well-known abuse of prisoners took place. He died on November 4, 2003, of "blunt force injuries complicated by compromised respiration," doctors said."

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/22/1085176035220.html?from=storylhs&oneclick=true


Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Lets examine the Human Rights Watch report:


If you wanted to examine the report, why did you skip over this?


-Punching, slapping and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;
-Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;
-Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;
-Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;
-Arranging naked detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;
Positioning a naked detainee on a box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes and noodle to simulate electric torture;
-Writing “I am a Rapist” (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year-old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;
-Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee’s neck and having a female soldier pose with him for a picture;
-A male military police guard having sex with a female detainee;72
-Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;
-Threatening detainees with a loaded 9-mm pistol;
-Pouring cold water on naked detainees;
-Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;
-Threatening male detainees with rape;
-Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;
Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick;
-Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;
-Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;
-Forcing naked male detainees to wear women’s underwear;
-Taking pictures of dead Iraqi detainees.