Author Topic: Thomas MacGuire  (Read 1453 times)

Offline Shuckins

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Thomas MacGuire
« on: June 30, 2004, 08:54:48 AM »
What really happened in that final deadly combat?

The various accounts of that event I've read over the years state the following possibilities.

1.  MacGuire and his wingmen were jumped at low level.  Their fighters were heavily loaded with ordinance and fuel.  MacGuire pulled into a high-g turn to go to the aid of his wingman, stalled, and dropped into the jungle.

2.  MacGuire overstressed his heavily loaded aircraft in that high-speed turn, causing structural failure and a subsequent fatal crash.

3.  MacGuire made a habit of learning all the wrong lessons:  i.e., constantly entering into dogfights with more agile aircraft.  Against Japanese pilots with less training he could get away with this.  However, in his last combat, he and his wingman got into a low-level affair with two Japanese "old hands," and paid the price.  The wingman was shot down and MacGuire spun in trying to dogfight with them.

Anyone have any information to shed light on this?

Regards, Shuckins/Leggern

Offline Citabria

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Thomas MacGuire
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2004, 09:07:46 AM »
he got greedy thats all there is to it. he broke all his own rules because he thought he made the rules.

he already asked for an extension of his tour and time was running out for him to beat bongs score.

he had his eye on the prize when he lead his 4 p38s down in on 1 ki43 in an overcast cloudy mess that forced the fight to the deck.

"keep the drop tanks on" he thought "there is only 1 ki43 and I need two" this was probably one of the last coherent thoughts in his mind before the adrenalin of combat tookover and they started trying to outmaneuver an ace pilot in a ki43 with P-38L's on the deck in a turnfight.

no one knows for sure if the ki84 that showed up (also flown by an ace) killed macguire or if he snapped out of a turn trying to do some drastic evasive or to cover his wingman.

but the statistics show 1 ki43 landed damaged (pilot survived), 1 ki84 crash landed (pilot killed by natives)

2 P-38L's destroyed (very experienced pilots both killed)
2 P-38L's damaged landed (less experienced pilots flying wingman to the leaders)
« Last Edit: June 30, 2004, 09:37:28 AM by Citabria »
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Thomas MacGuire
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2004, 03:02:42 PM »
Savage or Widewing had posted an updated investigation report that indicates that McGuire died from his plane entering into a vicious snap roll and spun in and being too low to the deck to recover, he crashed and burned.  Coupled with flying in an unfamiliar P-38 and disgregarding his own dicta on combat with drop tanks, led to disaster.

In the P-38, if you throttle back one engine and then want to throttle it back up, you have to throttle back on the other engine and advance them both together.  If this isn't done, the P-38 had a tendency to enter into a violent spin on the side of the throttled down engine.  Usually fatal below 5,000 feet.  Doing this, with drop tanks onboard which raised the stall speed and in the middle of a high G turn, it's very easy to see how McGuire could have gotten into a spin and crashed.  The survivor's testimony seems to back up this scenario as one of them reported the last thing he heard was McGurie gunning his engine a few seconds before he disappeared.  

I also seem to recall that when McGuire's plane was finally found, it didn't show any evidence of structural failure or severe enough battle damage that would have caused it to crash.


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Offline Guppy35

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Thomas MacGuire
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2004, 04:46:36 PM »
McGuire was flying another 475th FG Aces plane the  day he went down.  I was #112 of Fred Champlin

As mentioned above, the general consensus was the McGuire tried to turn in to save another pilot and because of the added weight of the drop tanks he had failed to drop, he snapped inverted and went into the trees below before he could recover.

Scan is of the P38 McGuire was flying that day.

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Offline Slash27

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Thomas MacGuire
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2004, 09:07:51 PM »
Ive been surprised with the amount of people that say McGuire never flew the P-38L. Where did you get your info Fester?

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2004, 09:50:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Slash27
Ive been surprised with the amount of people that say McGuire never flew the P-38L. Where did you get your info Fester?


He must have flown an L if he died in one.


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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2004, 12:37:53 AM »
I don't see why they say he didn't fly the L model...just look at any Pudgy pictures.



ack-ack
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Offline Slash27

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« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2004, 01:06:41 AM »
I don't see why they say he didn't fly the L model...just look at any Pudgy pictures.

Kinda what I was thinking, but you know how some of the "experts" in here are.



He must have flown an L if he died in one.

See above.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Thomas MacGuire
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2004, 01:44:05 AM »
The roster:
Major Thomas B McGuire Jr.
Major Jack Rittmayer
Captain Edwin Weaver
Lt Douglas Thropp.

Elements were McGuire  Weaver and Rittmayer Thropp.

Before the engagement, Rittmayer reported engine trouble and lagged back, starting to catch up when the first plane was spotted. Thropp has accused Rittmayer of faking the engine trouble.

First, the Japanese plane first spotted was flown by a pilot named Sugimoto, and flew directly toward and under the group.
It did not turn immediately and attack, but continued away.

Weaver wanted to drop tanks and go get it, but McGuire ordered them to hold tanks and continue.

The second Japanese pilot, Fukuda, was landing, but saw Sugimoto might be in trouble, and it is Fukuda that made the attack.

Fukuda saddled up on Weaver, and Weaver called out for help. McGuire was pulling around for the shot, and his plane shuddered, snap rolled, and spun in. Weaver said he heard the engines on McGuire's plane throttle back and then throttle up. McGuire's plane was not struck by enemy fire according to Weaver, who was the only surviving pilot close to McGuire.

Sugimoto returned to the fight, and shot up Thropp's plane, damaging the turbocharger on one side. Thropp egressed.

Fukuda made a head on pass at Rittmayer, and evidently killed Rittmayer with several shots to the cockpit. Fukuda says he saw what appeared to be a scarlet scarf on the pilot, Rittmayer wore no scarf, it is believed he was hit in the neck and possibly the head and killed outright. His plane crashed and exploded inthe jungle near a village, not far from where McGuire went down.

Rittmayer was seen to have scored hits on Sugimoto, and Weaver thought he hit Sugimoto as well. Sugimoto crashed in the jungle and is believe to have been killed by Philipino guerillas. He died of at least six gunshot wounds to the chest.

Fukuda landed at his base.

Weaver and Thropp became seperated, Thropp was very angry that Weaver did not find him and join up for the flight home. The CO, Mac MacDonald was very angry upon being told that both McGuire and Rittmayer "were down and burning", and demanded to "know what the Hell happened".

Weaver's account of the fight is generally accepted as what happened, and most of what Fukuda says agrees with it. Thropp disagrees, and takes exception to Weaver's report. However, most evidence supports Weaver's account.

The Philipinos recovered McGuire's body, and hid it from the Japanese, he was buried on a farm near the crash site. A subsequent autopsy was performed when his remains were recovered. He was indentified by his class ring. There was no evidence of gunshot wounds. McGuire was killed by massive head trauma and traumatic amputation of both arms. The head wound was not consistent with a gunshot wound.

From Weaver's account, and eyewitness accounts from Philipinos who saw the crash, along with what is known about McGuire, it is believed that McGuire simply chopped the throttle on both engines, or one, to sharply increase his turn, and when the plane shuddered and reached the stall point, he advanced the throttles and only one engine responded. Upon discussing what is known and eyewitness accounts with veteran P-38 pilots, all with considerable combat time, it is believed that one engine failed to respond, and the assymetric application of power caused the plane to snap roll inverted, with less than 1500 feet to recover, McGuire never had a chance. Every P-38 pilot involved said the same thing. The only way you snap roll a P-38 inverted like that is assymetric power.

The actual crash site has been located, and pieces of the plane identified. There was not enough of the plane left to determine whether structural failure due to combat damage or overstress caused the crash. It crashed into a creekbed in a ravine at around 300 MPH. However, the project was halted in September of 2001, possibly forever. The former Air Force fighter pilot who was running the show has been heavily involved with private contract flight for the military operations. He is not likely to have any free time to devote to the project in the foreseeable future. Also, with the delay, any funding that was in place is now no longer available.

McGuire was not nearly so greedy as you might think. He actually extended his tour because he felt he could not leave his men and his unit voluntarily. He wanted badly to go home, he'd barely gotten to know his wife, and missed her terribly. He felt the only way for him to go home he could accept was if he were to beat Bong's score and be forced to go home. He had been grounded because they did not want him to beat Bong before Bong finished all of his bond and publicity tours.

Oh, he pretty much did make the rules. It was McGuire who wrote the fighter doctrine of the theater, and in fact he wrote the hand book given to the new pilots when they arrived.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Guppy35

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Thomas MacGuire
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2004, 02:12:23 AM »
Hey Savage,  Where'd you get your info?  I've got the Stanaway history of the 475th plus all his other 38 stuff that includes lots on McGuire but much of what you posted isn't there, in terms of what happened to Rittmeyer ie; the red scarf, or the recovery of McGuire's body, autopsy etc.

I know there is a biography of McGuire out there that I don't have.  Is that were the info was?  Or is there another source?

Dan/Slack
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Offline Kweassa

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Thomas MacGuire
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2004, 03:19:27 AM »
Maybe his flaps retracted.

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2004, 03:41:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Maybe his flaps retracted.



stupid....



ack-ack
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Offline Crumpp

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Thomas MacGuire
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2004, 07:53:50 AM »
I've read that between Richard Bong and Thomas McGuire,  McGuire was the true leader and Bong was the greedy one.

I got stuck at an AFB for several hours during a business trip.  The Terminal was named after Thomas McGuire and had a museum inside.  It was pretty interesting but that was one of things that struck me.  They had a letter from one of the guys that flew with both of them.  Said basically that Bong was more out for himself and was not big into teaching the other guys and McGuire was all about taking care of other folks.

Crumpp

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Thomas MacGuire
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2004, 08:05:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
Hey Savage,  Where'd you get your info?  I've got the Stanaway history of the 475th plus all his other 38 stuff that includes lots on McGuire but much of what you posted isn't there, in terms of what happened to Rittmeyer ie; the red scarf, or the recovery of McGuire's body, autopsy etc.

I know there is a biography of McGuire out there that I don't have.  Is that were the info was?  Or is there another source?

Dan/Slack


Dan,
Much of it comes from the project I was involved with that I spoke of. Also, some did come from "The Last Great Ace", the biography. As well as some stuff from the various sites on the Internet that had info we could verify. There was some stuff we got indirectly from Hal Gray as well. Mason actually interviewed Thropp just a few years ago, and talked to Fukuda in Japan. He spoke with the man who recovered McGuire from the wreckage and hid his body from the Japanese, at great risk to himself. Also, Mac spoke with Mason before his death a couple of years ago. There would be more there, but Mac was not well, and was not happy with the fact that McGuire was so much the focus of research on the group.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Thomas MacGuire
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2004, 08:06:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Maybe his flaps retracted.


That was very juvenile. And I thought beneath you. I guess my respect for you was totally without merit.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe