stsll limiter

[RTGorkle]

Originally posted by Edbert MOL
In the "realism" department a pilot would have to constantly manage (and do it well if he wanted to get home) these types of things;

(1) cowling flaps or radiators
(2) air/fuel mixtures
(3) prop pitch
(4) prop rpm
(5) engine rpm
(6) manifold pressure
(7) multiple power adders (German planes in particular)

(numbers added by me)

3, 4 and 5 are all the same control, which you CAN adjust in AH2 independently from...

5 and 6 which are also the same control, i.e. throttle/boost/manifold pressure

I've got 2 small joysticks for my left hand to control each of these two.

[RTGorkle]

Oops. Remove the 5 from the line about 5 and 6

[Edbert]

Originally posted by RTGorkle
(numbers added by me)

3, 4 and 5 are all the same control, which you CAN adjust in AH2 independently from...

5 and 6 which are also the same control, i.e. throttle/boost/manifold pressure

I've got 2 small joysticks for my left hand to control each of these two.

3 and 5 are NOT the same, they have distinctly different controls, but both do affect 4 so I get your point.

Late war German rides had two different types of "WEP" (I am not an experten on the LW mechanics but one was a water/alchohol injection and the other was pretty much nitrous oxide), each was used differently and were controlled separatly.

_________________

Just spell it "deadalot", thats what the scoring pages call him

[mechanic]

Originally posted by Edbert MOL
I used to say that, and still agree largely with the thoughts but...

AH, and particularly the MA is rife with compromises to realism. The most glaring example would be in the department of engine management. we have only a throttle seting and a WEP key. Engine damage is not even modeled except for battle damage. In the "realism" department a pilot would have to constantly manage (and do it well if he wanted to get home) these types of things;

cowling flaps or radiators
air/fuel mixtures
prop pitch
prop rpm
engine rpm
manifold pressure
multiple power adders (German planes in particular)

Air traffic at bases is another glaring example, people land when/where/how they want, no concern with other planes in the pattern or on the tarmac. Many don't even consider the gamieness of a neon sign over your head that indicates not only the type of aircraft but the exact closure rates from 3+ MILES away.

I could probably be talked into having full engine management in the game. I could also be talked into a CT like icon system. The ATC thing would be annoying to say the least and you'd have to do a LOT of arguing to convince me we need that (and friendly collisions for those who ignore the ATC) in our game.

The point being this is a game, and it is a game that caters more to gamers than simmers (at least in the MA) although I'm sure that'll get me flamed. If you want to attract gamers you need to make it more like Quake (okay, so I am out of touch with the latest FPSers avvailable) and get the less experienced folks to the point where they can fly without crabbing along due to a rudder that is out of trim. I have no problem with the availability of these 'aids', since they offer the user no advantage. Just be glad we don't have 10K spawn points and KOTH type maps

we do have engine RPM control dont we?

i know we did in AH1.

batfink

[-MZ-]

The only thing bad about the stall limiter is that it might confuse newbies who wonder why they can't get a plane to spin in a game that advertises realistic plane models.

[Edbert]

Originally posted by mechanic
we do have engine RPM control dont we?

Sure, or manifold pressure control, or boost control, or any ONE of those. What we have is the 6 or 7 different controls melted down into 1 or 2 controls. AH2 changed nothing that I can see WRT engine management from AH1, they did change the fuel management (results not methods).

[WilldCrd]

Originally posted by -MZ-
The only thing bad about the stall limiter is that it might confuse newbies who wonder why they can't get a plane to spin in a game that advertises realistic plane models.

Well if newbies want i cant teach them how to spin a 38 tottally out of control...Im a friggin expert at it

[WilldCrd]

Originally posted by Edbert MOL
Sure, or manifold pressure control, or boost control, or any ONE of those. What we have is the 6 or 7 different controls melted down into 1 or 2 controls. AH2 changed nothing that I can see WRT engine management from AH1, they did change the fuel management (results not methods).

After AH2 is running smoother perhaps this will be addressed. OR it could be a feature of TOD.as it stands right now extra engine management features are prolly low on the list. Alot of new guys are still struggleing with the basics ....like stall limiter and combat trim. Not to mention flaps, dive flaps compression and getting the hang of fuel management

[Sikboy]

There was an excellent thread about this a while back, where Pyro said:

Originally posted by Pyro
I used to be of the school of thought that more engine management would be a good thing.  But as I looked into it more, I found that a lot of my beliefs about the subject were based on fallacies.  I think the desire for this is based on a couple of things.  The first is more immersion through realism.  That’s a good thing as long as it’s balanced.  Otherwise, it gets to be more like a poorly edited 3-hour movie that would have been better if it were only 2 hours long.  I think the second reason is because people want to be able to get an advantage for putting in extra work into learning something.  That’s not a bad thing either, but to do that just for the sake of it is counter to the first reason.

I think there’s a lot of assumptions made about he purpose of engine management and that’s what I would like people to specifically look at.

In the first post, Vulcan states “I like the fact that good engine management can give you an advantage in combat.”  I think that is an idea shared by many.  But is it true?  I have many books on the subject, but off the top of my head, I cannot think of a single account given where the pilot is tweaking his engine controls in combat to give him some perfect combination that results in an advantage.  On the contrary, I have discussed a wide range of subjects with vets and when I inquired about what they had to do engine-wise during combat, everybody I’ve asked has said that they just shoved everything on the throttle quadrant full forward until the fight was over.  I also get the feeling they consider it a dumb question and won’t ask about it anymore.  If anybody knows of combat accounts where the pilot is manipulating his engine other than through his throttle, please post them.

I think there are some who believe that a pilot should be able to pull more power if he knows how to manage his engine better.  I would like to see this belief quantified.  How is this extra power being developed?  If everything is pushed to the max, what exactly can you do to get more power?  Label the controls a la Spinal Tap?

So what is the real purpose of engine management in real life?  It primarily breaks down to two reasons.  Fuel efficiency and maintenance considerations.  Fuel efficiency should be obvious.  You will get a lot more range at a more efficient setting.  Maintenance considerations are there to extend engine life and time between overhauls.  People see a time limit on military power for a plane and assume that that means the engine will overheat or blow up if you run it longer than that and that’s not the case.  Is modeling it that way really more accurate?  We don’t model the maintenance considerations, you get a fresh plane each time out.  Hopefully, we’ll at least be able to take some stabs in that direction with ToD, but that’s not exactly something you can replicate to great effect.

You see a lot of calls for mixture control.  Why?  In most planes that we’re dealing with, there’s going to be two settings- auto-rich and auto-lean.  Below a certain setting, use auto-lean.  Above a certain setting, use auto-rich.  Does assigning a couple more keys and a cockpit indicator to that really add that much?  All it’s going to get you is better cruise efficiency on auto-lean and that can be modeled directly into the lower cruise settings.  

Contrary to what a lot of people think, we actually would like to see people use engine management.  But not in some contrived only-in-the-sim-world setup.  One of the main considerations for any WWII pilot was his fuel and we’ve always wanted that to be central in the game as well.  I just haven’t done a good job with that.  With the latest beta release, we’re really looking to get that where we’ve always wanted it to be.

The whole thread is a pretty good read, in fact a BBS search for "engine Management" yields some good info.

-Sik

[Edbert]

Originally posted by WilldCrd
After AH2 is running smoother perhaps this will be addressed. OR it could be a feature of TOD.as it stands right now extra engine management features are prolly low on the list. Alot of new guys are still struggleing with the basics ....like stall limiter and combat trim. Not to mention flaps, dive flaps compression and getting the hang of fuel management

I'm with ya WC, I don't think I'd put "enhanced" engine management near the top. I'm very much loking forward to TOD, but would not want FULL realism there either. Personally I tend to side on the realism side of the fence, but I don't wanna go ALL the way. The only point I was trying to make (way back up there) was that many concessions were made to 'realism' that make the game more fun and palatable to a lager audience. Some will say it is dumbed down too much, some will say not enough. Personally I'm fine with whatever HT and Pyro choose to implement (but I want native TrackIR now! ), I've been flying their sims for a very long time and see no reason not to continue doing so. It is still the ultimate game of its kind anywhere for any price. They surely know how to walk the tightrope between the sim and game camps!

[-MZ-]

Originally posted by WilldCrd
Well if newbies want i cant teach them how to spin a 38 tottally out of control...Im a friggin expert at it

With the limiter on?

[dedalos]

Originally posted by -MZ-
With the limiter on?

Yep, did it twice last night.  SL does not prevent stals, it just helps, I think.