Author Topic: Kerry is not an alternative.  (Read 1348 times)

Offline hawker238

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Kerry is not an alternative.
« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2004, 11:06:19 AM »
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Originally posted by Preon1
Sadly, this is the only defense for the Kerry plan that has any weight to it.  The childish 'neener neener' kind of approach where Kerry can say "But you're ALREADY doing what you're accusing me of planning!".  It worked when we were kids in the playground, and it'll work in this campaign.  I for one however,, prefer to vote for the man who plans on spending that deficit on killing our enemies rather than starting liberal, socialist initiatives (AND the war on terror (maybe)).


Wait, so you're saying Kerry's plan of overspending is foolish and naive, but Bush's plan of overspending is acceptable defendable?  And we're childish for questioning why its OK?

:confused:

Offline lada

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Kerry is not an alternative.
« Reply #61 on: July 09, 2004, 11:41:12 AM »
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Originally posted by VOR
No, lada, I have no idea what you are saying, but it hit me sideways this early in the morning.


Its locution.

In some european languages we have same expresion for "smart" and "lubricated"

Its absolutly same word so we have few jokes like that....


another example is this.

Vodik se asimiloval v roztoku.
Hydrogen has been assimilated in liquid.

Vodik se asi miloval v roztoku.
Hydrogen probably made love in liquid.

and so on....

One of them is Lubricated like a fox instead of smart as fox.

Offline Saurdaukar

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Kerry is not an alternative.
« Reply #62 on: July 09, 2004, 12:03:33 PM »

Offline Preon1

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Kerry is not an alternative.
« Reply #63 on: July 09, 2004, 12:53:56 PM »
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Originally posted by hawker238
Wait, so you're saying Kerry's plan of overspending is foolish and naive, but Bush's plan of overspending is acceptable defendable?  And we're childish for questioning why its OK?

:confused:


The Bush plan for spending is designed for two things:
-win a war
-aid the economy

Both of these reasons are acceptable when it comes to budget overruns.  The first reason is obvious.  We must stay alive in order to have this debate.  The second reason is because there is a positive macroeconomical impact that comes with deficit spending and low taxes.  In either case, once the essential need for that kind of spending is gone, we can/should expect that spending to go away as well.

John Kerry wants to spend money on new programs to deal with issues that our kind of government is simply illequipped to handle.  It would be a waste.

I'm not trying to say that you're outrage at deficit spending is childish.  Ofcourse we should question our government, contact our representatives, and act with our votes.  However, given the choices, considering that no matter what, we're gonna rack up some debt, I think Bush is the smart choice.

Offline lazs2

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Kerry is not an alternative.
« Reply #64 on: July 09, 2004, 01:04:54 PM »
preon said it better than I did...

The spending kerry will do will be for bloated and incompetent government giveaway and junk science that will be with us forever.  They will get even more bloated over time and cost even more.

If you don't have a strong military... some day you will need it and have to pay for it anyway but then it will cost a lot more.. thot we all learned that lesson by now.   The klinton kerry "gut the military to pay for socialism" plans only work in the very short term and only if the economy is strong enough to take the beating for 4-6 years.   Higher taxes kill the economy.

lazs

Offline john9001

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Kerry is not an alternative.
« Reply #65 on: July 09, 2004, 01:41:03 PM »
"""(6) First Major Legislative Plan: Affordable Health Care
John Kerry’s first major proposal to Congress will be a realistic plan that stops spiraling healthcare costs, covers every child in America, and makes it possible for every American to get the same health care as any Member of Congress.
"""

thats why he has a trial lawyer for a VP, oh brother.

Offline Edbert

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Kerry is not an alternative.
« Reply #66 on: July 09, 2004, 01:58:37 PM »
http://www.drudgereport.com/flash.htm

Fri Jul 09 2004 09:23:56 ET

Just hours before attending an all-star celebrity fundraising concert in New York, Dem presidential candidate John Kerry revealed how he has been too busy for a real-time national security briefing.

"I just haven't had time," Kerry explained in an interview.

Kerry made the startling comments on CNN's LARRY KING LIVE Thursday night.

KING: News of the day, Tom Ridge warned today about al Qaeda plans of a large-scale attack on the United States. Didn't increase the -- you see any politics in this? What's your reaction?

KERRY: Well, I haven't been briefed yet, Larry. They have offered to brief me. I just haven't had time.

Developing...

Offline Krusher

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Kerry is not an alternative.
« Reply #67 on: July 09, 2004, 03:24:32 PM »
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Originally posted by mosgood


I can't turn on the tv without hearing about him or Cheneys relationship with companies that are profitiing greatly by thier policies.  


Boston Hearald:
Kerry and Teresa Heinz Kerry reported more than $250,000 in Enron stock ownership before the firm's 2003 collapse. Kerry also was forced to return a campaign contribution from an implicated Enron executive.
 
     And Heinz Kerry served on a charity board with Lay, even after he was implicated in the alleged fraud, records show.

storch

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Kerry is not an alternative.
« Reply #68 on: July 09, 2004, 03:29:44 PM »
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Originally posted by Krusher
Boston Hearald:
Kerry and Teresa Heinz Kerry reported more than $250,000 in Enron stock ownership before the firm's 2003 collapse. Kerry also was forced to return a campaign contribution from an implicated Enron executive.
 
     And Heinz Kerry served on a charity board with Lay, even after he was implicated in the alleged fraud, records show.


*gasp* say it ain't so!!!!! not the Kerrys from Massachusetts.

Offline mosgood

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Kerry is not an alternative.
« Reply #69 on: July 09, 2004, 05:28:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusher
Boston Hearald:
Kerry and Teresa Heinz Kerry reported more than $250,000 in Enron stock ownership before the firm's 2003 collapse. Kerry also was forced to return a campaign contribution from an implicated Enron executive.
 
     And Heinz Kerry served on a charity board with Lay, even after he was implicated in the alleged fraud, records show.



ya see.....


My fellow Americans... it is my pleasure (NOT) to present to you your only 2 choices for president to run your beloved country.....:rolleyes:

Offline rpm

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Kerry is not an alternative.
« Reply #70 on: July 09, 2004, 06:42:51 PM »
About as I expected, only 1 or 2 serious responses. TY, Preon and muck.
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Define fully fund? Are we going to set a reasonable bar for the expectations of our children's future, or are we just going to throw money at the education system? People knock NCLB because they say that it sets the bar too high for realistic results in public education. The fact that we have trouble teaching kids to read and add is not an issue that's going to be solved just by throwing money at it. Give the public schools goals to stretch for, THEN apply money as necessary. A lot of my family is in public education, and it's AMAZING how wasteful schools are when they get government money without starving a bit under lofty goals


What Kerry is talking about is ending unfunded mandates. Where the federal government makes up a new rule, but forces locals to come up with the money, therefore raising your local taxes to fund it. That way Bush can say he never raised any taxes...he just forced others to do it for him.

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The first initiative is nice, but a President asking people to volunteer time to improve the community is not a new thing. It's also something that can't and shouldn't be a benchmark of a national administration. Community improvement can only be realisticly directed from the local level.
As far as four years of college for two years of national service... I take issue with that. For instance, two years of tuition assistance under the Montgomery GI Bill would only net a person $6500, hardly enough to pay for 4 years in a State school. Where are you paying for this? Honestly, I believe the college education is overrated for (and even wasted by) most Americans. 2 years of National service should more realisticly earn you the right to vote.


I still have no problems with this. Sounds like a great way to get people to pay for college while improving our society. As far as Americans wasting their education, you may be right. But how many jobs require a degree? A lot of them! A great idea for those who want to learn, but can't afford the tuition.

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Limiting rights when terrorism is suspected can hardly be considered wholesale. Most of these people aren't even Americans. This bullet is more like poorly worded filler so you can reach a magic 10 points. What civil rights under law have been lost with John Ashcroft as Attorney General? What civil rights will come under law when he's replaced? The fact is that any civil rights they may be whining about are already in place, and what they will attempt to enact is more like social favoritism.


Yes, we all know Ashcroft has saved us from an attack by Tommy Chong. :rolleyes: If Ashcroft was so concerned about terrorism, why did he rabidly go after an actor that sells bongs? Damned druggies! I have not seen any links between Chong and al-Queda, have you? Oh well, with this administration they invent links, don't they? Did I fail to mention his nephews recieved a slap on the wrist for growing 60 pot plants in Missouri while Ashcroft was Governor and didn't go to jail? They were procecuted in State rather than Federal court, even tho it fell under federal guidelines, because federal courts have manditory drug sentencing.

And speaking of flip-flops, Ashcroft said "There has been an insistence that we turn over the keys to our individual privacy to the federal government, but there has been no talk about safeguards or privacy. Apparently, innocent citizens are expected to trust the bureaucracy not to abuse them as the IRS has done by shake down audits, or the FBI by handing over hundreds of sensitive files to political operatives in the White House."  That was prior to him becoming AG, now it's completely different. "To those who pit Americans against immigrants, citizens against non-citizens, to those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, my message is this: Your tactics only aid terrorists for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve. They give ammunition to America's enemies and pause to America's friends. They encourage people of good will to remain silent in the face of evil."

Ashcroft ordered the statues of "Liberty" and "Justice" in the Justice Department covered because they were "obscene".
He is the live version of "The Church Lady" Dana Carvey used to play on SNL. Ashcroft is a rabid dog that needs put down. (P.S. He lost an election to a dead man!:lol )

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All I'll really say about this is that if you check with the Department of Energy, you'll notice that we get very little of our oil from the Middle East. The vast majority of our oil comes from the american continents. However, I personally think that energy independence is a very sexy goal, and cutting off the Middle East is a good first step. 1 Point to Kerry for almost saying it.


You are correct in that we recieve the majority of our oil from the west, but it is still imported. I see becoming energy independant as a good thing. I think we both agree on this point. There are methods of energy available that we are not using and it makes us weaker overall. If we just lower usage enough to quit buying from the middle east, I say good job.

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A successful war against terrorism is one of everlasting vigilance. I agree that we need allies in this war so they can police thier own, but the fact of the matter is that Bush chose the 'unilateralist' action because our allies WOULDN'T police thier own. Kerry doesn't have an effective solution for that problem. He simply hopes that he can put the trust and the lives of the American people into the hands of the UN. In my opinion, such a corrupt organization would, after having been given Kerry's approval, would sacrifice more American lives and trust than Bush ever did on his own.


We lost our allies when we focused on Iraq instead of al-Queda. Bush took a personal agenda and ran with it. Imagine what the war on terrorism would look like today if we had the coalition that Bush,Sr put together. He got antsy and dropped the ball. I don't want us to put our military under the sole control of the UN, but it's better to work with them than against them. Like the old saying "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar."

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That's just silly. If you want to control health care costs, start with litigation and tort reform. Unfortunately, John Edwards got rich off of poor people battling corporations with the all mighty tort. Under Kerry and Edwards, not only would healthcare CONTINUE to spiral in cost, but so would taxes.


A national healthcare program is not "silly". All I see in rebuttal  is "Edwards was a lawyer, ACK!" America needs a national health plan for Americans that can't afford insurance. Before you go screaming "they get insurance at work, why don't they get a job" just let me remind you not all companies offer health insurance.  Some do just for employees, not family members. Some offer it to employees and family members, but the rates are restrictive. Some (especially construction) don't offer it at all, they hire by contract and have no benifits at all. It's a idea long overdue.

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I could be wrong here, but I don't see anything in the term 'Manufacturing jobs tax credit' other than a handout to the AFL-CIO. I'm INCREDIBLY anti-union so I'll stop on this point before I make an bellybutton of myself.
Finally, closing loopholes for corporate tax evasion is a good thing. The fact that they're trying to pin it onto the wave of corporate accounting scandals is shameless. If there was a loophole in the law that allowed me to not pay taxes, I'd use it. What the accounting scandals amount to is me lying to the IRS on my taxes. One is legal, the other isn't.


They are not being procecuted because they used "loopholes'. They are being procecuted because they cooked the books.
Giving credit to companies for not firing Americans and sending their jobs overseas just to boost profits. Taking away credits to those that do sounds like good judgement. Why reward the greedy?

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Kerry can't fund all his initiatives by repealing the tax cuts for those who make more than $300,000 a year. It's a mathematical impossibility. It's sad that Kerry believes that they way ahead in America is to punish the successful for succeeding.


You ever think if we quit sending BILLIONS of dollars to Iraq and let the rest of the world share the expense. I didn't see where he planned to completely fund it by the tax cut repeal.

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It's a fine goal, but they won't be able to do it. We had a budget surplus under Bill Clinton during the hayday before all that accounting malpractice surfaced on the public radar. At that time, the government was getting it's tax revenue from 'successful' corporations. Waging war on the 'honest' successful corporations that we have left will leave us with nothing. The way out of the deficit is to start an initiative to kill wasteful government spending. It will take longer than 4 years, to kill 50 years of piled up crap.


Who spent the surplus? I agree it will take longer than 4 years to clean up 4 years of piled up crap...maybe 8.:aok
« Last Edit: July 09, 2004, 06:50:59 PM by rpm »
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Stay thirsty my friends.

Offline rpm

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Kerry is not an alternative.
« Reply #71 on: July 09, 2004, 06:43:52 PM »
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Wait... they're going to keep people from talking to their Congressman? That's probably the worst idea I've ever heard. And don't get me started on defining 'special interests'.


Where did that come from? The initiative says that it will reinstate a 5 year ban to keep government officials from selling out government to get big corporate jobs in return. That's a bad idea?

What about changing secret deals in Washington by requiring every meeting with a lobbyist or any special interest deal inserted into a bill by a lobbyist be made public. That a bad idea as well? I'm willing to give Kerry a chance at turning this thing around and get America back on track.
My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.
Stay thirsty my friends.

Offline FUNKED1

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Kerry is not an alternative.
« Reply #72 on: July 09, 2004, 07:00:01 PM »
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Originally posted by midnight Target
(checking for last balanced budget.....)

Hey look! it was 1996 to 2000!


Gee, when the economic cycle randomly spikes in one direction, you get more revenue than projected.  "Look, I balanced teh budget!".  And when it spikes in the other direction, you get less revenue than projected.  "TEH DEFICIT OH NOS!!!"

Offline SLO

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Kerry is not an alternative.
« Reply #73 on: July 09, 2004, 07:37:08 PM »
preon thx you for giving me a headache.....

that Golly-geen post is too long.....

I vote we shot preon so he won't post so long a reply:D

Offline Preon1

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Kerry is not an alternative.
« Reply #74 on: July 10, 2004, 02:03:48 PM »
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Originally posted by rpm371
What Kerry is talking about is ending unfunded mandates. Where the federal government makes up a new rule, but forces locals to come up with the money, therefore raising your local taxes to fund it. That way Bush can say he never raised any taxes...he just forced others to do it for him.


NCLB is not a mandate in the terms of "You will ensure that your students can read and add on top of everything else", it's a mandate that states that their students' abilities to read and add is the priority.  I remember a couple years ago, my old high school got a ton of money from the tobacco settlements...  They spent it on a new football stadium.  Instead of funding everything, NCLB demands that schools spend the money they have where it counts most.

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regarding free college
I still have no problems with this. Sounds like a great way to get people to pay for college while improving our society. As far as Americans wasting their education, you may be right. But how many jobs require a degree? A lot of them! A great idea for those who want to learn, but can't afford the tuition.


er... $$$

[skip Ashcroft rant...  you don't like him... that's your right]

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regarding Kerry's energy initiative
You are correct in that we recieve the majority of our oil from the west, but it is still imported. I see becoming energy independant as a good thing. I think we both agree on this point. There are methods of energy available that we are not using and it makes us weaker overall. If we just lower usage enough to quit buying from the middle east, I say good job.


If these other methods were cost effective, we'd be using them already.  Instead of promising that the US is going to switch to some wonderful cosmic energy source, it's better to outline a more realistic way to develop it.  In the end, we agree here.

[not a lot to work with on the international coalition...  I think they're beyond contempt.  You don't.]

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A national healthcare program is not "silly". All I see in rebuttal  is "Edwards was a lawyer, ACK!" America needs a national health plan for Americans that can't afford insurance. Before you go screaming "they get insurance at work, why don't they get a job" just let me remind you not all companies offer health insurance.  Some do just for employees, not family members. Some offer it to employees and family members, but the rates are restrictive. Some (especially construction) don't offer it at all, they hire by contract and have no benifits at all. It's a idea long overdue.


You simply can't afford lavish social programs for your entire population and continue to have a growing and innovative society.  In my opinion, the government should be responsible for no more than preventing the spread of disease.  That being said, a national healthcare system should include mandatory screenings and vaccinations.  However, I am not going to pay for the wasteful spending that arises when people undergo unnecessary operations because of the logic 'might as well be safe... besides, the government is paying for it.'

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regarding closing loopholes in the tax code
They are not being procecuted because they used "loopholes'. They are being procecuted because they cooked the books.
Giving credit to companies for not firing Americans and sending their jobs overseas just to boost profits. Taking away credits to those that do sounds like good judgement. Why reward the greedy?


Again, I never said closing the loopholes was a bad thing, and companies that lied about thier finances should and are being prosecuted.  However, smart business practices do not amount to greed.  As I said, the actual number of American jobs outsourced to foreign countries in the last 3 years is negligible compared to the jobs lost in the recession.  People can always find a new job.  That's the beauty of the free economy. (notice it's getting back on track again)  Unless a corporation is retarding our children or destroying our environment, I say stay out of their business.

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You ever think if we quit sending BILLIONS of dollars to Iraq and let the rest of the world share the expense.


I think if we stopped rebuilding Iraq the rest of the world would look the other way (and blame us for the result).  I think Iraq would become the next Somalia, or what post-Taliban Afghanistan threatens to be: a regionalized area of the world devoid of law and run by tribal warlords.  We're trying to prevent terrorism, not feed it.

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Who spent the surplus? I agree it will take longer than 4 years to clean up 4 years of piled up crap...maybe 8.:aok


The surplus was an illusion, like the pre-internet bubble economy.  It was never really there to be spent.

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regarding regulating lobbying
Where did that come from? The initiative says that it will reinstate a 5 year ban to keep government officials from selling out government to get big corporate jobs in return. That's a bad idea?

What about changing secret deals in Washington by requiring every meeting with a lobbyist or any special interest deal inserted into a bill by a lobbyist be made public. That a bad idea as well? I'm willing to give Kerry a chance at turning this thing around and get America back on track.


The problem is that you're taking the government representatives a step back from the people.  If I feel SO STRONGLY about an issue that I'm willing to fly to D.C. and talk to my congressman about it, you've just branded me one of those evil 'special interests'.  Lobbyists represent every aspect of our society that has a stake in the actions of our government.  I'm simply saying that it is impossible to regulate communication with representatives without undermining the essense of democracy.

RPM,
In the end ofcourse, we'll never come to terms.  Your ideal government system is based around the principle that freedom means compassion for all.  Mine is based around the principle that freedom means personal responsibility for all.  I don't see the two ever being reconciled...  ofcourse... I'm not running for President.  I'm simply voting for Bush.

SLO,
Sorry for giving you a headache, but I like arguing too much.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2004, 02:13:39 PM by Preon1 »