My take on female leadership

[Martlet]

Is lada female?

[lada]

Originally posted by Russian
Ignorant statement. Best supervisor I ever had was a woman.

But Nadezdas rulez

[WilldCrd]

Originally posted by Martlet
Is lada female?

no, but he knows atleast one hotchickybabe.

That makes him ok in my book

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So there, whats the point of anything I just wrote? Did it open up your mind at all?

Not really. You have read alot, and you have talked to alot of ppl about leadership. To be honest I dont think you know what Im talking about.

Im not asking in an attempt to set you up and slam you down or something like that, its just that I have this vauge memory of you saying sometime that you just got out of highschool or something like that. With that as background I dont really know what kind of work you could have that would let you interact regularily with "CEO/VP/Director level exectuvies and discuss leadership and business topics with them"
(Unless you are referring to job interviews you have been on, but that would be really silly, so Im assuming you are referring to some job you have now)

As for the woman leader you are applying for a job to. There is a difference between looking in from the outside, and talking to someone, and work with them on a day-to-day basis. You know this ofcource because you have read alot about leadership, but Im gonna say it anyway, in any new group-dynamics situation you have a honeymoon period. What I am talking about is what happens after this honeymoon period. After that everyone falls into their group-roles (you know this of cource with your expertise in the subject) and it is during this period that my bad experience working with females comes from.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Lizking
A lot of times, the person causing the problems is the last one to recognise that fact, Hortland.

Yes, you are quite correct in that. Often the person will not even acknowledge that there is a problem at all, let alone take any responsibility for it.

[midnight Target]

Our parent company does 2 BILLION in sales every year. The CFO and the Director of Quality (my ultimate boss) are both women, and both brilliant and decisive. I think it is you Mr. Hortlund who lacks experience in this matter.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by midnight Target
Our parent company does 2 BILLION in sales every year. The CFO and the Director of Quality (my ultimate boss) are both women, and both brilliant and decisive. I think it is you Mr. Hortlund who lacks experience in this matter.

Have you worked with them alot? Enough to personally know how they are in the leader-role?

Or are you referring to their ability to hold a high office, attend board meetings and afterwards act "brilliantly and decisively"?

Anyway, look at my post. I didnt say "all women are idiots and they cant hold any responsible positions at all". What I did say was
"My experience with regards to working with women is that if there are 1-2 on a group of 5-10 it works ok-ish"
Sounds to me like that might be a similar situation the rest of the board members might be in then...

[GRUNHERZ]

Wonderful selective reading again...  

High School?  WTF?  I'm a college grad from a good school and worked during school and graduated top of my class.

And as to why I interact with CEO's its because I work with them and they find my insights useful. They are very busy and they dont have the time fool around.. For example I just recently developed a  startup company marketing strategies guide for one CEO, in fact we might even use it for many new companies...

Why do you have this bizzare need to belittle me in this thread?

It's getting annoying....

Why should I bother with you when you are so offensive and clearly unwilling to accept contrary viewpoints?

So once again...  I strongly feel that your conclusions are wrong and that women are fully capable of good leadership.

And again is there any point to anything I wrote, has it opened your mind one bit?

[xrtoronto]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Hortlund that statement is ignorant on so many levels..  

And just for you to ponder..

[Lizking]

I meant you, Hortland.

[capt. apathy]

maybe I'm the only one, but I agree with him.  a fanatical adherence to procedures and guidelines, to the point of refusing to budge from them even when shown that the situation is not typical and sticking with the guidelines is actually counter-productive to the purpose they were intended for..  backstabbing, gossip, moodiness, people getting promotions, raises and special treatment because 'he tries so hard', 'they have a hard life'.  being passed over for a raise because she doesn't "feel" like you are a team player (even if you are the most productive worker on the crew)

they expect all the privileges of men with out any of the responsibility.  go off on rants, and in a fit of rage saying stuff that would get any man hit, name calling accusations, but call her a name and its time to buy a suit for your court date.

maybe it's not really a fair assessment of the whole gender though.  maybe (at least in many of the trades that didn't traditionally have a lot of women) it just because the first one that comes along that shows any hint of not being completely clueless they make a Foreman.  it really can turn you off of the whole idea of women bosses when every one I've seen has been in way over her head, and in the end, if she is able to get the job done, she does it buy someone on her crew getting fed up and just telling her what needs done (basically he does her job, she gets the pay.  and since the company has finally found a woman Foreman who can get the job completed, she'll always be the boss on future projects)

I've worked with a couple women that where good workers , the exception rather than the rule though, the majority (60-70% estimate from those I've worked with over the last 15-20 years) flirt or pout in order to get men to do their heavy, dirty, or just plain distastefully work for them, that or just lay around on their bellybutton and threaten to sue if you fire them.

in 20 years I've never seen a woman fired from a construction job.  if they can't do the work they get a job following the Foreman around writing things down or driving the truck for him.  if their boss gets fed up and wants to fire them the company just moves them to another crew.  then theres the other who find some guy who is very skilled and essential to the project, they end up dating him, knowing the company won't fire his GF for fear of him leaving with her.

I've even met a few that where OK in low-level management positions(were they were told exactly what needed to be done and all they had to do was manage the people).  but none that I want making decisions that effect my safety.  I wouldn't refuse to promote a woman on that basis alone, but I have yet to meet any that I've found suited for the higher rolls once I got to know them.

[Lizking]

If you think you can deal with a female the same as a man, I would only advise to never get married.  don't treat them like your boss, the man, treat them like your boss, the woman.

If you have only been exposed to *******s that happened to be women, your exprience is limited.

[storch]

Originally posted by Hortlund
Now, this may come across as very un-PC. Nevertheless it is my honest opinion and I have enough experience working with them, both while being a superior to one or more, and while being a subordinate to one or more, to be sure of my position.

It is a generalization naturally, but I have yet to meet someone to beat the generalization.

Well, time to stop stalling, here it is.

Women are not good leaders.

I have never worked for a woman that had genuine leadership qualities, I have worked for several who had leadership skills fully on par with South American dictators...or for that matter, leadership skills fully on par with a rabbit. I have worked in groups with women several times, and every time it ended with a disaster. Worst case was in a group of 13 women and 3 men. Within days the women had formed three different fractions that fought eachother viciously while at the same time doing everything to recruit us guys into their fraction.

My experience with regards to working with women is that if there are 1-2 on a group of 5-10 it works ok-ish...you just have to avoid certain topics. If there are more than 2, they will create two fractions where 2 will freeze out 1 for whatever reason. If there are more than 4 they will form two OR MORE fractions and they will spend the majority of their time fighting eachother.

It works better if there are clear hierarchies, like a secretary-boss situation. But as soon as there are fluid hierarchies, like two lawyer-coworkers the scheming bastards begin.

Hear, hear

look at the messes our military, police and other first reponders are in due to the forced hiring of women.

Please don't misunderstand there is nothing finer on earth than a woman, she must first however know, understand and submit to her place.  Otherwise she is all but usless.  we must first be men and we must know our place and what is expected of as men  (sadly most of you haven't a clue what that means) in order to have a woman respond to you as woman should to a man.

Great post Hortlund.

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by Hortlund
Have you worked with them alot? Enough to personally know how they are in the leader-role?

Or are you referring to their ability to hold a high office, attend board meetings and afterwards act "brilliantly and decisively"?

Anyway, look at my post. I didnt say "all women are idiots and they cant hold any responsible positions at all". What I did say was
"My experience with regards to working with women is that if there are 1-2 on a group of 5-10 it works ok-ish"
Sounds to me like that might be a similar situation the rest of the board members might be in then...

Yes, I work with both almost daily. They both hold high offices because they worked their way up into them. Both were line workers, floor supervisors & managers within this company.

My top employees (3 I can think of) are all women. One came to me from a job supervising over 100 employees.

I can name many more who I have worked with and for over the years, but that is really the point here isn't it? You have about 20 years of life to experience before you can really make as valuable a generalization in this regard.

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by storch


Please don't misunderstand there is nothing finer on earth than a woman, she must first however know, understand and submit to her place.  Otherwise she is all but usless.  we must first be men and we must know our place and what is expected of as men  (sadly most of you haven't a clue what that means) in order to have a woman respond to you as woman should to a man.

Amazing. I remember hearing nearly the same thing from one of those silly Taliban spokesmen around the time of the war... I feel sorry for your wife or daughters if you are instructing them to "submit to her place."

Maybe you could explain exactly what that means to you...