Most overrated Flight charicteristics

[F4UDOA]

Just looking through the TAIC report on the P-47D-30, P-38J and P-51D vrs the A6M5 (A broken one at that) and I noticed a couple of things that if they happened in AH people would be whining like the C-Hog was unperked.

1. Dive acceleration- The test was measured by starting at 200MPH IAS at 10,000FT at full power. After the Zeke reached the preset redline of 325MPH IAS the following was noted.

P-51D-5- Had a 200 yard lead after 27 seconds.

P-38J- Had a 200 yard lead after 30 seconds.

P-47-D30- Had 100 Yard lead after 30 seconds. (Surprise!)


2. Zoom climb from level flight starting at 10,000FT 210IAS full power until 130MPH IAS

P-51D-5 had a 300Foot lead. (Not yards).

P-38J- Had a 200Foot lead.

P-47D-30- Had a 400 foot lead.

3. Zoom climb from shallow dive applying full power when the nose passes through the horizon.

P-51D-5- Had a 500 foot lead

P-38J- Had a 300ft lead.

P-47D-30- Had a 600ft lead.

What stood out to me was

1. P-51D had better dive acceleration than either the P-47 or P-38.

2. In no dive or climb did any aircraft get out of guns range of the A6M5 by AH standards.

3. The P-47 was indeed the best zoomer of the bunch.

4. After 30 seconds the P-38J at full power only had a 200yard lead on the malfunctioning A6M5 used in the test. This does not meet the expections of the dive calculations I have seen.

Any thoughts?

FYI I can post the full report if anyone is interested.

[gripen]

Originally posted by F4UDOA

Any thoughts?

 

I have seen parts of this report in various books earlier. Seems that acceleration of the P-38 is generally over rated as well as ability to maintain energy during maneuvering.

Originally posted by F4UDOA

FYI I can post the full report if anyone is interested.

That would be most interesting. TIA!

gripen

[VooDoo]

It will be cool to read full report or at least to see any details bout zoom climb tests. Any figures about alt gained after zoom there ?

[Nashwan]

FYI I can post the full report if anyone is interested.

I'd love to see it.

4. After 30 seconds the P-38J at full power only had a 200yard lead on the malfunctioning A6M5 used in the test. This does not meet the expections of the dive calculations I have seen.

It seems to me a lot of people have an expectation that their plane should be able to open up a huge gap in a quick dive, but as far as I can see the physics don't allow for it. The report would be most welcome. Does it give the angle of the dives involved?

[Crumpp]

Please post the full test!

BTW as you probably already know, Dive acceleration is a function of level acceleration.  

Crumpp

[Karnak]

1. Dive acceleration- The test was measured by starting at 200MPH IAS at 10,000FT at full power

Starting the test at even speeds gives it the appearance of fairness, but in fact is exactly the opposite as the P-51, P-47 and P-38 would have had to have made critical errors to be co-alt and co-E with an A6M5.  In practice the American fighters should always be going much faster than the A6M5 and that, coupled with their higher permitted dive speed, will allow them to pull away easily.

2. Zoom climb from level flight starting at 10,000FT 210IAS full power until 130MPH IAS

The same is true of this test.  Starting at 210IAS sets the US aircraft up in a situation they should never be in, as the A6M5 demostrates in the test.  The American aircraft are unable to get out of the A6M5's gun range in anything like a fast enough time.


All these tests point out is that if you fight to your oponent's strengths, such as the A6M5's low speed handling, you are setting yourself up for a world of hurt.  I suspect that if we did the test in AH using the same rules we'd get very similar results.

I don't think anybody is claiming that these aircraft, or other fast diving or good zooming aircraft, should have a massive advantage if they are starting from a co-E position.

[Pongo]

Great observation karnak.

[straffo]

In AH you will never see a P38/47/51 cruise at anything lower than MIL power.

Redo the comparaison a Zeke with P38/47/51 with this kind of setup.

It wil be completly different.

[GODO]

I suppose the test describes a normal situation in combant, not just a "what if" they all were cruising happily in the skies at max speed. For me, that test setup is perfectly valid.

IE. A P47 zooms up to catch a higher slow Zeke, it levels at Zeke's six at 200 mph and the zeke tries to dive, the zeke is in P47 gun range in less than 20 seconds but barrel rolls and the P47 overshoot and zooms up again with the Zeke at its six not being able to keep with it in the zoom.

[Angus]

Wow
I thought the difference would have been more.
Pity that there is no roll rate included. The Zeke's notorious roll (slowness) is yet to be found on document. However, those US fighters should have been able to use it as an evasive.
Nevermind, Karnak and Straffo are right, and I just wonder how this would compare a) at cruise speeds and b) in the AH world at those given speeds

[Karnak]

MANDOBLE,

The point is that the circumstances in which that would occur are very specific and would not normally occur.  In your example the P-47 pilot made a mistake in his attack pattern by being overly agressive.  He should have taken the time to osition himself correctly so as to utilize his aircraft's superior characteristics.

Also I think you missed the point of the zoom test.  The P-47 would not, from a co-E position, be able to zoom away from the A6M5.  200 yards of separation from a malfunctioning A6M5 by the time the zoom climb ended would give the A6M5 plently of effective shooting time.


Also, nobody is talking about cruising around at MIL.  The correct tactics for an American aircraft in the Pacific Theater are to fly at a higher alt than the Japanese do.  The American fighter should be the attacker and you do not enter combat at cruise power.

[Angus]

Sometimes one enters combat when the bullets starts flying into one's butt. Sometimes one enters the visual contact at cruise speeds, whatever the visibility may be....

[BUG_EAF322]

strange because the p38 is simply the better climber.

it does mean nothing

[F4UDOA]

Well it took me a while because it is 8meg and I had to empty allot of stuff of my web storage but I got it in there.

Notice it is both the Navy F6F/F4U/FM2 and the AAF P-38,P47,P51 report mixed with the TAIC data in the back. I did not put this report together but it is loaded with good stuff.

FYI, The Zero the Navy used was about 15MPH faster than the one the Army had. Also the test were done about 5 months apart.

Very similar results in Zoom climb and dive acceleration in respect to the F4U/F6F.

A6M5 TAIC/AAF report

[F4UDOA]

Starting the test at even speeds gives it the appearance of fairness, but in fact is exactly the opposite as the P-51, P-47 and P-38 would have had to have made critical errors to be co-alt and co-E with an A6M5. In practice the American fighters should always be going much faster than the A6M5 and that, coupled with their higher permitted dive speed, will allow them to pull away easily.

Karnak,

I dissagree on the "Pull away easily part".

The test was done at 10K and after 30 seconds the best that was done was a 300 yard lead. That is not out of guns range even by WW2 standards. Surely in a longer protacted dive the result would be different but 30 seconds is an eternity in combat in AH or RL.

Also the long time to reach 325IAS tells me it was a shallow dive (30 degrees maybe) so in a virtical dive the result may have been different.

I will test this to check the result in AH.