Author Topic: Boeing… Boeing… Gone?  (Read 1383 times)

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
Boeing… Boeing… Gone?
« on: July 17, 2004, 11:05:29 AM »
I like to travel a lot, and use various different airlines with different routes and fare plans. For this reason, I’m always interested to note what’s going on with regard to airliner development so that I have some idea of what I’m likely to be flying in.

A few years ago, I watched a documentary in which the fly-by-wire concept was explored. Many people had had reservations about this since that airshow disaster with the A320 many years ago. But it seems the pros outweigh the cons, with airlines and even the pilots themselves favouring the fly-by-wire concept rather than conventional hydraulic controls. The documentary pointed out that once the fly-by-wire concept had been adopted, there would be no going back to conventional controls. However, I do wonder how the Gimlie Glider incident would have ended up had the plane involved been an Airbus, with little more than a Saitek EVO to control it.

So I wondered how fly-by-wire would be accepted in America, given that it was primarily a European development by Airbus, and might be eschewed by America under the mantra of “not invented here”. Well maybe by Boeing but not, it would seem, by the airlines themselves. Flying from Denver to San Francisco with United Airlines in 1997, I was surprised to find myself aboard an A320, developed in France! (British Aerospace helped out with the wings) A few years later, I flew to the WB 2000 con with US Airways – not a Boeing, but an A330! One of the guys at that con was a 757/767 pilot with US Airways and asked me about the flight over. He said he had ambitions to step up to the A330, but that it was “way too senior” for him at present. (I think he’d done it within a year though)

Now it seems that F-B-W is moving on in leaps and bounds. Cut price airlines like easyJet, whose entire fleet used to consist of B737s, have begun moving over to Airbus – with cost being given as the main reason, but no mention of the flight control system. They have plans to buy another 240 Airbus aircraft…

Still, it seems that Boeing is catching up – the 777 is F-B-W with one important difference, if my sources are to be believed: The pilots can override the computers, the Airbus pilots cannot. I take it that all Boeing aircraft will, in future, be built with the F-B-W control system?

The 747-400 is, I am told, the largest airliner in service. A great aircraft, and yet American Airlines has no 747s at all. Apparently AA is not impressed with 747 fuel consumption when compared with that of other aircraft.

Soon, Boeing will be kocked off its perch as producer of the largest airliner when the A380 enters service in 2006. In a typical configuration the A380 will seat 555 passengers.

So it looks like Europe is carrying the torch for airliner development right now, and will continue to do so for many years.

Will Airbus buy up Boeing? Well… not yet. Besides, the spectacle of Ripsnort having to sell his guns so he can relocate to France to live and work is beyond my powers of imagination!
:rofl

Offline AKIron

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13415
Boeing… Boeing… Gone?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2004, 11:11:19 AM »
Fly-by-wire was in the F-16 long before Airbus adopted it. I'm assuming when you said it was a European development that you meant it was first adopted commercially by Airbus?

Little doubt that fly-by-wire will eventually be the standard, drive-by-wire will be too.

Doing a bit of research, fly-by-wire goes back to the early 1960's. Not sure who did it first.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2004, 11:15:44 AM by AKIron »
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
Boeing… Boeing… Gone?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2004, 11:13:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
I'm assuming when you said it was a European development that you meant it was first adopted commercially by Airbus?
Yes, indeed.

Offline AKIron

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13415
Boeing… Boeing… Gone?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2004, 11:21:54 AM »
Maybe this was the first Digital FBW A/C: http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Newsroom/FactSheets/FS-024-DFRC.html
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Dago

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5324
Boeing… Boeing… Gone?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2004, 12:13:17 PM »
Quote
fly-by-wire concept rather than conventional hydraulic controls


Wrong statement.  Fly by wire is still a hydraulic control system.

Fly by wire as used on the F16, then later copied (plagarized?) by Airbus still moves thea flight controls by hydraulics.  The conventional flight control systems typically uses cables to deliver input to the hydraulic servos.



dago
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline Nilsen

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18108
Boeing… Boeing… Gone?
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2004, 12:25:56 PM »
Im on thin ice here, but wasnt an F8 Crusader fitted with the fly by wire system that was destined for the spaceshuttle the first ac with fbw?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2004, 12:28:02 PM by Nilsen »

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
Boeing… Boeing… Gone?
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2004, 12:31:10 PM »
The Honeywell MH-96 adaptive flight control system was tested on the X-15 as part of the Dyna-Soar test project in the early 1960s.  It completely separated control input from the control surfaces too, had to to blend control of the control surfaces with the reaction control system for flight above the atmosphere.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Nilsen

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18108
Boeing… Boeing… Gone?
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2004, 12:32:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
The Honeywell MH-96 adaptive flight control system was tested on the X-15 as part of the Dyna-Soar test project in the early 1960s.  It completely separated control input from the control surfaces too, had to to blend control of the control surfaces with the reaction control system for flight above the atmosphere.


ok, wasnt sure at all. How is the body recovering btw?

Offline AKIron

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13415
Boeing… Boeing… Gone?
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2004, 12:33:24 PM »
There seems to be a distinction made between fbw and digital fbw.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Nilsen

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18108
Boeing… Boeing… Gone?
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2004, 12:38:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
There seems to be a distinction made between fbw and digital fbw.


I guess a kite would be analog fbw  :D

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
Boeing… Boeing… Gone?
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2004, 12:40:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dago
Wrong statement.  Fly by wire is still a hydraulic control system.
Yes I know that, D**kbrain. :rolleyes: The keyword was "conventional". You don't seriously believe anyone thinks that control movement is dependent on the pilot's strength? :lol

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
Boeing… Boeing… Gone?
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2004, 12:46:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nilsen
ok, wasnt sure at all. How is the body recovering btw?

It's doing great, down almost 25lbs now.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Nilsen

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18108
Boeing… Boeing… Gone?
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2004, 12:53:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
It's doing great, down almost 25lbs now.


outstanding....congrats :)

maybe i should do it to....kinda like a preemptive strike

Offline Fishu

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
Boeing… Boeing… Gone?
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2004, 01:18:03 PM »
Boeing and Airbus navigation is functionally pretty much similar, does alot of the same things.

You could fly planes of the both manufacturers with almost completely from departure to arrival with autopilot.
There are some things which prevents it from being completely automatical: autopilot is activated only after passing certain altitude; there usually are vectors from ATC, which limits you from using every aspects of the autopilot; not every airport is equipped with CAT-IIIb ILS equiptment, which would enable fully automatic approach & landing + pilots and planes needs to be certified for this (plus possible company limitations).

Otherwise you can pretty much fly automatically the full route with Boeing and Airbus manufactured planes.
Of course it depends on the cockpit layout - older planes can have non-modernized cockpits with so called steam gauges.

All this is done by a flight management computer, where your route is input into.
Planes are then capable of flying along the programmed vertical and lateral navigational profile.

Different airline companies have different regulations, ie. some does not allow use of vertical navigational properties, but that does not mean they dont use autopilot: they input wanted vertical speed and the autopilot then maintains it.
etc.

Offline AKIron

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13415
Boeing… Boeing… Gone?
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2004, 01:48:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nilsen
I guess a kite would be analog fbw  :D


Nah, that'd be FBS

The earlier FBW may have used electrical synchro/servos vs the digital electronics used later.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.