Author Topic: Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)  (Read 3237 times)

Offline JRCrow

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« on: July 17, 2004, 07:54:23 PM »
Ok I am going out on a limb here not sure if I am alone or not.
I have scene many times where one side out numbers another and tactically an easy defense is to take out there fuel.  In the new AH We can no longer do that.  I do not understand why this option was taken out, though perhaps I missed a conversation about it.  I know many fuball pilots are saying they hate the fact that the fuel gets taken out because it makes it more difficult to fly.  I say hey this game has alot of strategy in it which makes it very enjoyable.  Destroying the fuel works both ways too.  However now when a side is outnumbered it is basically helpless against the other side relying upon killing barracks which stops the troops from comming but still allows people to vulch a field for extended periods of time.
    Ok that was a little long winded and caotic at best.  Simply put however can we bring the fuel targets back?  Or something that will have a similar effect.  I puts a big hole in the trategy of the game.
    All

Offline DipStick

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2004, 08:40:31 PM »
In a word... NO! Send a couple of buffs and take out their fighter hangers, ord and barracks.

Offline Innominate

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2004, 09:03:09 PM »
I'm all for porking fuel.  But not through simply killing a few easy to kill fuel tanks.

Maybe something like the old system combined with a strat target....

Fuel refinery starts at 100, and field starts at 125.  The fuel available corresponds to whichever is higher.  So to even be able to pork fuel at all, the strat target must be bombed.   IMO AH needs things like this.  

Honestly I still like the idea of changing the war from land grabbing to the bombing of large strat targets.  Move the power required to win the war to the bombers, with the fighters there to support them and defend from them.

The real air war was built around the bombers.  In AH, the bombers are a sideshow, little more than kamikazi CV killers.

I hate when I finish writing a post and end up nowhere near where I began.

Offline Flit

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2004, 10:33:03 PM »
just kill the fh's, it's almost as easy as killing the fuel was in AH1,ecspcially (lol somethin not right there !) on a small or med field

Offline Kweassa

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2004, 01:24:15 AM »
Crow, the Rooks success on NDIsles proves that ultimately the revised strat system is much more helpful to the defense, rather than to the offense. Numbers, hordes, whatever reasons given, were it in AH1 we'd still have been reset long ago, being stuck in the SE "reset corner" of the Isles.

 But currently, while MA is using only NDIsles, we've been reset once something like weeks ago, and we've been spawned to this frickin' corner again, and have been holding out ever since. None of the Bish or Knits ever advanced into the main Island more than one base. A11, A12 or A17, P14 occasionally falls, but the enemy advance is absolutely halted from that point.

 Accident or intent I do not know, but the new strat system works in a very clever way now. It is still possible for few dedicated people to halt enemy offense(by killing barracks!), but the fight itself is still going on since the fuels are untouched! Furball action galore, but easier to stop enemy advance at the same time.

Offline JRCrow

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2004, 10:05:28 AM »
While I agree killing FHs is a viable option is requires heavy ordinance (Bombers) which are nearly impossible to penetrate a numerically superior force and get them to target.  The Fhs also respawn fairly rapidly which makes it a temporary effect.  Quite often in bombers by the time you make a second run the hangers you hit on the first one are ready to come up.
    I do see that the fields have been rearranged and actually make it easier to take out the hangers now.  It still limits your trategic options though.
    I think fuel should should be a viable target somehow.  Right now it is untouchable, thats not right.

Offline JRCrow

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2004, 10:19:45 AM »
To Kwessa:

     I did not quite follow you on the defense of the NDIsles, I must have missed the battle somehow.  I do agree that killing the Barracks stops or delays the enemy from taking a base however it does nothing to hinder there agression.  They just keep comming and can easily control a region until the Barracks come back or sustain long enouph for a longer goon flight.
    Strat Targets are a fundamental part of warfare.  What would it be like if there were no start targets at all.  Much like just another video game with perhaps a better engine.  
     I think that is one of the things that really sets this system apart from the others.  Its nearly a full scope battle field.  
     I am open minded though and would very much like to here you defensive strategy.

     By the way, I have read other postings that complain about the Rooks outnuber the Bish or the Bish outnumber the Knights or whatever.  I would like to stay off of that path.  I am sure everybody is outnumber or on the short end and one point or another.  I feel like it sometimes too, but there are also times when the odds are quite even and enjoyable.  Ocassionally we have the upper hand too.  I just don't wnat this conversation to go down that road, because that is not my intent.  Perhaps I started this the worng way.  Sorry


Offline Kweassa

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2004, 01:11:01 PM »
Quote
I did not quite follow you on the defense of the NDIsles, I must have missed the battle somehow. I do agree that killing the Barracks stops or delays the enemy from taking a base however it does nothing to hinder there agression. They just keep comming and can easily control a region until the Barracks come back or sustain long enouph for a longer goon flight.


 Crow, aggression without any potency of capture is void and empty. Control of airspace is meaningless when you have nothing to do with what's under control, and barracks respawn in about two hours or so - which is in most cases more than enough for the tide of battle to change.

 In those two hours time a good, trained pilot can go pork troops in at least three bases. If there are three~four of these guys in the area, and they can kill all enemy barracks upto 50 miles behind the "front" - forcing them to fly goons from at least 75 miles away. (except... for some reason, stupidity probably, there are surprisingly small number of people who go hit barracks)

 Porking fuels may halt the enemy from upping some types of planes, but it works both ways in that the defenses cannot up fighters to sustain sufficient CAPs for extended length of time. During that time the enemy can always up an organized jabo from 2nd line bases behind the frontline, and insert into our vicinity at altitudes which we cannot reach due to lack of fuel.

 Barracks are different, in that destruction of barracks does nothing to hinder defensive capability, while it serious deterrs offensive capability. The barracks buildings have now become a strat object more important than anything else.

 If we define "defense" as being able to meet force with equal numbers of force to halt advance then we might be able to agree with your reasoning - but if we define defense simply doing anything necessary to stop enemy advance, then the ability to put more planes in the air does not matter anymore.

 
Quote
Strat Targets are a fundamental part of warfare. What would it be like if there were no start targets at all. Much like just another video game with perhaps a better engine.
I think that is one of the things that really sets this system apart from the others. Its nearly a full scope battle field.


 There still are strat targets. The importance of those targets, are even higher than fuels were in AH1 - it's just that nobody wants to understand the new dynamics of tactics and strategy in AH2.

 The most important target is the barracks. The second is ammo bunkers, and the third and fourth are VH and radar(but these two are of value when your team is on offense). Of the many strat targets which were available in AH1 only the fuels are missing, the rest work in the same manner but different in priority.

Quote
I am open minded though and would very much like to here you defensive strategy.


 The defensive strategy is simple: up fighters, avoid radar contact, sneak into enemy field and kill barracks. It's the exact same thing(in the way how it's done) as porking fuels in AH1, except it's easier to do and more effective.

 Repeat this, so that every enemy barracks within 50 mile range of the frontline is dead. Then you've got two hours to organize defenses and start pushing back the enemy. Unless the defending side is absolutlely overwhelmed in every field, the defenses can form up, and start fighting back.

 The enemy may be able to swarm a certain base and control the area, but they are gonna have to fly a goon from 75 miles away.

 Up a very fast fighter as goon hunters, occasionally drop a goon or two and basically there's no way for the enemy to utilize their control of airspace into something useful.

 The only was to stop goon hunters is to set up screen/CAPs at every altitude at every base a defender might take off from, for an unknown period of time until the field is captured by a goon which takes more than half hours to arrive..  and at the same time keep the target field vulched and covered.

 By the time goons fly 75 miles to reach the base the VHs and acks start popping back up. If the defense puts in at least 75% of numbers of the attackers in the sector, then they can be driven back.

 Basically killing the barracks is the equivalent to disrupting enemy logistics. The longer they have to fly troops in, the easier to defend.

 I define it as aggressive form of defense, pushing past the front line, and hitting important targets behind the line.

 Compared to that, the traditional method of 'defense' by upping same or more number of fighters to meet enemies in the sky and duke it out for supremacy, or, do something to immediately reduce enemy numbers put up in the sky, is inefficient, risky. It's a passive way of defense, waiting for the enemy to show a certain level of strength, and then matching it with our own or trying to cut it down to our size.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2004, 01:16:48 PM by Kweassa »

Offline Simaril

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2004, 02:22:07 PM »
Agree that strats much more important than before, which hasnt been reflected in position of strat targets. While Rooks were defended home island for days, they also found it near impossible to get off the island -- because city and troop training were in enemy territory and stayed pounded down. Thus every barracks killed took hours upon hours to regenerate.

Strat work and captures take more work than before because of larger towns and fuel preservation. I find it very hard to get enough people on the same page, to accomplish anything at all -- which may be why the furballs seem longer too.

We'll see how things go with the bigger map. If more space for bombers to hide in, may be able to have 2-3 people make strategically signififcant impact
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Offline simshell

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2004, 03:31:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by JRCrow
While I agree killing FHs is a viable option is requires heavy ordinance (Bombers) which are nearly impossible to penetrate a numerically superior force and get them to target.  The Fhs also respawn fairly rapidly which makes it a temporary effect.  Quite often in bombers by the time you make a second run the hangers you hit on the first one are ready to come up.
    I do see that the fields have been rearranged and actually make it easier to take out the hangers now.  It still limits your trategic options though.
    I think fuel should should be a viable target somehow.  Right now it is untouchable, thats not right.


fly higher get a gunner learn how to level bomb and dont come in at 3k try 15k or higher

and leave that lancaster death trap and get a B17 or if your up to it you can do B26

Bombers are more deadly then they have ever been and play a bigger role

a large fighter force should be able to Cap a field in 15 mins that those hangers are down for
known as Arctic in the main

Offline JRCrow

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2004, 10:33:44 PM »
Ok, can someone tell me why they took away fuel as a strat target, maybe this will help me to understand what is going on.  So far no one has told me anything I do not know.  Sorry to sound frustraigted, but I am.  It just does not make sense.  

Thanks alot for the input.....


Offline Kweassa

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2004, 12:23:46 AM »
People were getting tired of seeing one~two guys totally annihilate the capability to fly planes and ruing a whole sector of fight.

 So, they changed it so one~two guys can stop enemy advance, but still let people have the fights they want.

Offline moto61

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« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2004, 12:58:07 AM »
Give me a break! The Rooks ought to get the short end every time with the freakin hordes they put up.

Offline JRCrow

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2004, 02:11:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
People were getting tired of seeing one~two guys totally annihilate the capability to fly planes and ruing a whole sector of fight.

 So, they changed it so one~two guys can stop enemy advance, but still let people have the fights they want.



     A couple of guys could have taken out the barracks in AH 1, that has not changed in AH 2.  

     Sounds like the Furballers got bent so now they ratified the game and removed a trategic element.  All the other Trat elements have remained the same accept for the fuel.  With the accpetion of larger cities now.  I can see that being an improvement as the old ones were quickly taken down.  A bit to easy I think.

     I can uderstand that perhaps it was to easy to do so before so why not add a few more fuel cells per airfield to make it a little harder to take it down?  What do you think?  Bottom line is it should be a viable target, maybe not so easy as before (Like the cities).  Maybe haveing to target the main refinery as suggested to drop it to its lowest point.  Something!

    Nothing should be untouchable.....

Offline Kweassa

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2004, 03:13:49 AM »
Quote
   A couple of guys could have taken out the barracks in AH 1, that has not changed in AH 2.


 A bit different.

 Fuel bunkers immediately effect the fuel load the moment they get hit. For some planes, being knocked down to even 75% was something of a death blow.

 Compared to that, all the barracks were needed to be downed at the field to take effect in AH1 - multiple barracks were distributed around the field, typically three of them in most cases. Taking down the barracks at the base, was a lot harder in AH1.

 
Quote
Sounds like the Furballers got bent so now they ratified the game and removed a trategic element.


 Furballers didn't remove anything. HTC saw the problem, heard the complaints, thought it was reasonable, and they made the change.

 Gameplay adjustments are not democracy - some things are never changed no matter how many people complain. Being changed, means the developers themselves agreed that there was a problem.

Quote
All the other strat elements have remained the same accept for the fuel. With the accpetion of larger cities now. I can see that being an improvement as the old ones were quickly taken down. A bit too easy I think.


 And there was a good reason behind the change. I'm not a furballer myself. I'm a strat guy, little general, loud mouth in country, guy who orders things around, etc etc. And I, hated the fuels being porked.

 Like said above in other posts, hitting barracks allow people to halt enemy advance, but it won't stop enemy planes from upping. In a gameplay perspective, one~two guys kamikazeing the fuel bunkers to deprive sectorful of people to even fly a plane is neither realistic nor desirable.

 Remember that this is a game. Realism counts ofcourse, but only when a certain consensus is reached that the realism adds to gameplay, not deters it. The fuel porking disgusted so many people in so many situations - it's simple as that.


Quote
I can uderstand that perhaps it was to easy to do so before so why not add a few more fuel cells per airfield to make it a little harder to take it down? What do you think? Bottom line is it should be a viable target, maybe not so easy as before (Like the cities). Maybe haveing to target the main refinery as suggested to drop it to its lowest point. Something!


 Why?

 Fuel porking works both ways.

 It instantly deprives people of the chance to up planes.

 FHs are different in that they require large amount of ordnance to kill, and all of the multiple FHs must be killed to take effect. It takes time and organization, certain amount of skill to execute a planned strike on FHs with limited numbers. (provided the numbers of both sides are equal at a certain front)

 The fuel bunkers are very easy to kill, with attritional value so high that a single suicidal plane can instantly damage the enemy ability to use planes. It doesn't take any planning, nor amount of skill to kill an object with 250lbs durability. One Typhoon with rockets armed can kill 2~3 fuel bunkers with rockets, and strafe down another 2~3 before it gets caught up and shot down.

 In short, the risk to effect ratio of fuel bunkers are so unbalanced that it disrupts gameplay. Suicidal attacks pay off with incredible dividends.

 If there is any other alternative to this, it is to adjust the risk/effect ratio of fuel objects, so that enemy fuel refineries are to be hit, not some flimsy bunker at a field, which would slowly but steadily effects fuel capacity for the course of the one-week term in AH until maps are reset on Fridays.

 Anything that can be downed so simply, which instantly deprives people of the opportunity to fly planes, is more or less unacceptable.