Author Topic: Flaps ... (Read 1402 times)

GScholz · « **on:** July 22, 2004, 12:02:21 AM »

The modelling of flaps in AH seems very "generic", and I see no reason why HTC cannot model flaps more accurately since pilot's manual reprints of most if not all aircraft are available for purchase.

While some planes like the Spit has two-stage flaps modelled the F6F does not. The F6F-3 had two-stage flaps electrically operated by an on-off switch located near the throttle. I cannot find any information on the F6F-5 having a different flaps setup. The Nikki should have automatically operated combat flaps (auto extend/retract by G-loading). The Mosquito should be able to use its landing gear as an air brake.

The number of stages and the degrees of each stage also seems generic on most planes, and there is that big debate about flap extend/retract speeds. Some planes didn't even have staged flaps, but hand cranked.

I'm no expert, and I may be wrong in everything I've said here, but to me it seems that the flaps in AH has received less attention than the rest of the modelling when accuracy is concerned. This would be understandable for a new game, but given AH's age and its designers "heritage" from earlier games I find this rather disappointing. Especially if it gives some planes unhistorical advantages, and robs other planes of their historical advantages.

Just my $.2

JB73 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 22, 2004, 12:08:42 AM »

sounds hard to model..

how would one "deploy" hand cranked flaps? there has to be "stages" because of the nature of keymapping.

as for the other stuff i have no knowledge on or comment LOL....

just wanted to point out my first gut reaction to how it could be changed.

GScholz · « **Reply #2 on:** July 22, 2004, 12:18:41 AM »

RPM settings are not "staged" and they are keymapped. By holding the key down the flaps could be deployed smoothly. The speed in which they extend could even vary with speed since cranking them out would be harder as speed increase.

Raptor · « **Reply #3 on:** July 22, 2004, 12:21:21 AM »

I would think it would require more time/energy to crank the flaps out. Especially at high speeds

GScholz · « **Reply #4 on:** July 22, 2004, 12:31:48 AM »

In the lower-left corner of this 109 cockpit picture you can see two wheels. One was for the flaps, the other for elevator trim. Perhaps they were power-assisted, they look kind of small for hand power alone.

I'm sure many planes had similar setups, especially early war planes. Russian planes were known for their (typically Russian) simplicity, so I expect most of them to have hand-cranked flaps.

GScholz · « **Reply #5 on:** July 22, 2004, 12:42:56 AM »

The Focke-Wulf's flaps are modelled incorrectly for instance. They should only have three settings: retracted, take-off, and landing.

"The flaps have two settings, 13 degrees and 58 degrees (+ or - 3 degrees of calibration).

The first setting of 13 degrees is used in take off. They are retracted once level flight is reached up to a speed of 500 Km/h.

The second setting of 58 degrees is used in landing and should be deployed between 220 - 300 km/h."

Info courtesy of Crumpp, who bought the 190-A8 pilot's handbook.

I'm pretty sure there are many more planes that have incorrectly modelled flaps settings and speed limitations.

J_A_B · « **Reply #6 on:** July 22, 2004, 01:33:29 AM »

"they look kind of small for hand power alone. "

You can do a lot with gears.

I agree with GScholz.

J_A_B

JB73 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 22, 2004, 08:41:32 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by GScholz
RPM settings are not "staged" and they are keymapped. By holding the key down the flaps could be deployed smoothly. The speed in which they extend could even vary with speed since cranking them out would be harder as speed increase.

yes that could work for some planes, but still what about those planes that did have staged flaps?

there would have to be a seperate code for them, so the keymapping would put down 1 notch, 2 notches and so forth....

also would that mean the FM would have to be "fluid" relative to how much of the flaps were down in planes that you could in theroy crank down 1-1,000,000 different positions. in theroy every millimeter would effect the lift somewhat....

and sadly modeling that you know there would be some realism nazi comming along saying that at 57% flaps the planes if not flying right, but at 62% it is... why can't HTC get it right LOL.

GS sir i am not in disagreement with you, just pointing out the inherent problems with doing it in a flight sim that i see.

if there was a way to do it "realistically" as in historically accurate, i am all for it.

GScholz · « **Reply #8 on:** July 22, 2004, 09:00:31 AM »

Your making the problem unnecessary complicated. Obviously there would be some stepping, say one-degree steps. It works fine with RPM, it works fine with zoom and view movement, it works fine with throttle, it works fine with ailerons, elevators and rudder ... AND it already works fine with flaps. The effect of the flaps begins immediately and gradually as they deploy in AH now! When you deploy the binary flaps on the Spit for instance the effect of the flaps increase gradually, they don't just jump down. We just don't have the correct choices of when, how and by how much they deploy.

JB73 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 22, 2004, 12:08:26 PM »

true, never thought of it that way lol

like i said just saying what poped to mind.

.. see the site yet? what you think so far?

GScholz · « **Reply #10 on:** July 22, 2004, 12:17:12 PM »

Looks good ... a bit empty at the moment, but good.

phookat · « **Reply #11 on:** July 22, 2004, 12:42:20 PM »

Good idea Gscholtz. I would imagine that flaps are done as a continuous function now, in the flight model. All that needs to be added is the control and user interface, as well as perhaps modeling for the different geometries of flaps.

Krusty · « **Reply #12 on:** July 22, 2004, 02:08:36 PM »

Just FYI, the wheels pictured are trim wheels. NOT flaps. The flaps are activated by a lever on the upper left side of the instrument panel. It is obscured in this pic by the red-handled lever sticking out of that side of the cockpit.

GScholz · « **Reply #13 on:** July 22, 2004, 04:07:55 PM »

"Pilots verbatim impressions of some features are of interest. For example, the DB 601 engine came in for much favourable comment from the viewpoint of response to throttle and insusceptability to sudden negative 'g'; while the throttle arrangements were described as 'marvellously simple, there being just one lever with no gate or over-ride to worry about'. Suprisingly though, the manual operation of flaps and tail setting were also liked; 'they are easy to operate, and being manual are not likely to go wrong'; juxtaposition of the flap and tail actuating wheels in an excellent feature.

Krusty · « **Reply #14 on:** July 22, 2004, 04:22:53 PM »

While I can understand that interpretation of the matter, I read it as the flaps are manual, as opposed to another post recently (

)which stated that the N1K2 had automatic flaps (that deployed without pilot input).

One of the wheels is for elevator trim, the other for aileron. I have seen similar setups in lighter-than-air aircraft as well. Two wheels, one controls one axis, the other controls another axis.

That is why I interpret it as so.