Not a whine.

[CANNON]

 I got the rubber bullits yesterday. The thing that was interesting about this, is that this was the first time since ive been doing modem speed tests, that this has happened. I do test every time before I go online. Ive found that as long as im above 28 i have no problems.

I recheck speed after i got the rubber bullits. My modem speed had dropped from 31 down to 9 for some reason. NP i just relogged and problem went away.

 I also might mention that ive only seen one warpy plane since ive been doing this. He must have had a very bad connection. Even when my speed dropped i still did not see any warps.

 I think this test, in effect, is more important than FR or even ping test (for us computer know nothings)

[This message has been edited by CANNON (edited 03-12-2000).]

[Mighty1]

I get rubber bullets all the time.

Some nights I cannot get a kill no matter how much lead I put into someone other nights I just have to look mean at someone and they die.

It's frustrating but I've gotten used to it.
If I know I have them I just jump into a buff and bomb the hell out of something.

------------------
Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals

"Come try to club THIS Seal"

[Ripsnort]

You might want  to  try the links at  Lephturns Aerodrome on optimizing your network connection, since  I've optimized,no
more rubber bullets.

------------------
Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
Aces High Training Corps
JG2 "Richthofen"
 
"Some people are only alive because it is illegal to shoot them."

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 03-13-2000).]

[Mox]

 

Originally posted by CANNON:
I got the rubber bullits yesterday. The thing that was interesting about this, is that this was the first time since ive been doing modem speed tests, that this has happened. I do test every time before I go online. Ive found that as long as im above 28 i have no problems.

The moment I got in a fight with you I knew you must have been on a modem because you were hoping all over the place.  I made one pass at you (I missed), I was extending away very fast and you fired some bullets (not even in my direction) and got a single Ping kill on me as I was flying away from you at 400mph!  On my screen you were flying more than 30 degree's away from me.. I saw you fire (I was watching as I extended away)tracers, they looked like at least 1-1.5K away from me and then I took 1 ping and died.

Moral of the story.. Get a good connection!    Lag does work to your advantage "sometimes".

No hard feelings I just chalked it up as another lag death.  Lag deaths are some of the most frustrating deaths.  I'd rather I screw up and plow a ditch then to be lag killed.

Mox
The Wrecking Crew


[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 03-13-2000).]

[Pyro]

We have to get our hands on a film of this happening to verify it.  There are so many factors in the gunnery and damage model that it creates a huge disparity between the times you get an easy kill vs the times it seems like you light him up with no effect.  The planes you fly, where you hit, which guns you hit with, and at what range, create this big difference.  Having a bad connection will not give you "rubber bullets", you will either damage the other guy or get dumped from the server.  If there is a bug going on, the only way we're going to find it is to get a film of it.  

[Mox]

 

Originally posted by Pyro:
Having a bad connection will not give you "rubber bullets", you will either damage the other guy or get dumped from the server.  If there is a bug going on, the only way we're going to find it is to get a film of it.  

I have a very good connection (T1) and I'm in Downtown Dallas.  I rarely EVER get disconnected from the game unless you guys take the server down.  I'm on RW with around 10-15 people a night and when most of them start losing their connection I'm still flying, along with many others.

Pyro, Can you explain a little about "how" the network model is designed?

If a modem player is discarding 30% of the packets and a fast connection is discarding 1% of it's packets then you can easily see that the modem player can have a disadvantage AND a advantage depending on when his packets are discarded.

Example: Modem players fires his guns and all his packets happen to go through (no discards) it's likely that the fast connection is going to take all that damage(assuming the modem player is on target) because he's discarding less packets.

Example2:Fast connection fires bullets at the modem player (all packets go out from the fast player w/o any discards) BUT the modem player is having a bad time with lag and 30% of the bullet packets never make it to the Modem player.  Now you tell me who has a advantage....

I know that it can also work against the modem players.
Example:  I'm the guy with the fast connection and I'm sleeping in a Buff not even at the keyboard and a Modem player in a fighter comes up behind me and fires several burst... if the Modem player is having a lag problem then I might not ever see his bullets thus the lag is a disadvantage for him.

Now lets think about it a little more... All a person would have to do is figure out a way to disable and or reduce the number of incoming packets that are enemy bullets and you have a wonderful cheat!  I would doubt that the average player could do something like this but it does bring  up a question.
Does AH have any form of packet encryption or “cheat” detection?

I rarely play on a modem but I have tested with several friends on modems and they simply do not see my bullets.   I'm on the phone with them and we've tested over and over and the modem player had more of a "rubber bullet" effect but it was not always to his advantage.   In fact in some test’s the modem player lived to fly again only because he never saw the bullets (he heard them fire on my PC but never saw them on his)..

This is in no way a slam against modem players,slow connections, or a slam against AH’s design.


Mox
The Wrecking Crew

[CANNON]

 Pyro. You know way more about this than I do. But i do think theres a connection between modem speed and rubber bullits. For the last two days, my modem speed has been hopping around like torque being questioned about his time online. The result is hoseing c47,s at 300yrds with a f4u 1c, and watching them fly off.

 Also i cant reproduce this at will. Something is fluctuating. And it can change from one moment to the next. If you guys get a film editor. I dont mind filming all the time.

[This message has been edited by CANNON (edited 03-14-2000).]

[Pyro]

Hits are sent using TCP.  This protocol uses numbered packets which are then acknowledged back.  So when you send data to the host, the host receives it and sends an acknowledgement.  If you don't receive an ack after a certain length of time, it will keep resending that packet.  If it never receives an ack, eventually your connection will be dropped.  This is what's happening when your beacon goes yellow and then red.

Now none of this is to say that there can't be a bug happening here.  But in order to see what's going on, we need to get a film.  If it's happening every now and then, it'd be worth it just to hit the record button and let it run.  Unless you're really short on HD space, the size shouldn't be a problem and you can delete unimportant films after you're done.  

HT will be adding editing capability to the film recorder, but that's not currently on our immediate list of things to do.



------------------
Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

No sniveling!

[Lephturn]

Two things I think could cause this:

1.  Flaky connection.  Hit my web site link below and look for the connection optimization guide.  It includes links for optimizing different connection types.  That said, there has been some funky toejam going down on the net lately, and that can cause weird problems.  When you see weird stuff happening, film it if you can, then run a traceroute.

2.  Dis-abling V-synch.  It may be coincedence, but I've talked to a couple of guys who were seeing rubber bullets when V-synch was dis-abled.  If you have messed with this setting, ensure it is re-enabled.

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
 http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/


"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
 - Steve Earl

[Mox]

 

Originally posted by Lephturn:
2.  Dis-abling V-synch.  It may be coincedence, but I've talked to a couple of guys who were seeing rubber bullets when V-synch was dis-abled.  If you have messed with this setting, ensure it is re-enabled.

After I turned V-synch back on I had less of a problem.  I went from seeing "rubber bullets" 5-8 times a night to once a night.

The funny thing is I usually have the "rubber bullet" problem on the same exact players.  I wont mention any names here but if you want to know Pyro I'd more than happy to email you the names.

I'll start recording entire sessions, now.

Mox
The Wrecking Crew

[Yeager]

Easymo, TT, CANNON,

Definately try to optimize your connect.  The rubber bullits seem to be an indicator that the problem is the connect quality from your end (possibly ISP or simply odd routes to HTC).  Of all the scraps we have been in, I have had consistent problems tracking you from 6 due to small warps and when in the HO I usually die well after the merge.  Last nights HO was really weird because I didnt see any tracers coming from you and I sustained two dozen lethal pings long after merge (odd for an F4U-1C, pings from this beast are usually very few).  

Understandably, this could be a situation where Our Two seperate connects never mesh very well, yet others around us do not see a problem with either of us.

As a general rule, my connect is stable and guns lethality (when I HIT what I shoot at)
is very solid as well.  However, please let me know what you see.  If Im warpy I might not know it, so dont hesitate to call it and I will relog.

Still, great simming on your part.  Always a do-or-die proposition.  Salute!

Yeager

[Minotaur]

Yeager;

At times I am not seeing tracers either.  This often results in getting shotdown via a 1 ping kill.  

This gets weird, I have the idea that I am being shot at long before I get shot down.  It just does not factor into my SA brain computer because I am not seeing any tracers.  

At the times this has happened, I see none or very little warpage.

------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew

[Mox]

 

Originally posted by Minotaur:
This gets weird, I have the idea that I am being shot at long before I get shot down.  

I've seen this too.  3 days ago I made a big mistake and I was caught low in a 109 without E by 3 spits.  The 3 spits were ALL over me, I could see them in my rear view.. all diving on me and ALL within 1k... they closed to 300 and still not a single tracer.  I couldn't believe my eye's, why were they not shooting?  I knew I was dead but for some reason they gave up after a long chase (I was in aG10).  The entire time I watched them in the rear view and I never saw a single tracer?  

Was I saved by lag? Was a saved by the "rubber bullet" god?  Who knows...

Only thing I'm sure of, I should have been a easy kill and should have died.

Mox
The Wrecking Crew

[CANNON]

  Yeager. I almost never see tracers in an HO. On the other hand  I very seldom see warps. Go figure. And ive never gotten a beacon. My screen freezes, or I disco.

[This message has been edited by CANNON (edited 03-15-2000).]