Author Topic: guns dispersion, D9 tested  (Read 1940 times)

Offline bustr

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guns dispersion, D9 tested
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2004, 09:28:14 PM »
GODO,

Being MANDOBLE with an average of 500-600 kills per month, I thought you could be teased by us lesser mortals. Being the best of all of us, your ranking #1 in fighter, I assumed you would help us by example to overcome the differences in the AH1 and AH2 environment. Because I have many responsibilities outside of AH, I do not have the luxuery you do to fly 90-120 hours a month.

Since Hitech has instituted a moderation on conduct such as mine recently, I extend my apology. I have always been able to tease Shane in kind. I guess that just rates myself as a "SlobberDonkey".:)
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline DoKGonZo

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guns dispersion, D9 tested
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2004, 09:46:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GODO
D9 guns are wing-root mounted, not many more places are more rigid thant these.


Yes ... I realize this ... but even there some structural flex is possible. Whereas centerline mounted guns are about as rock solid as you can get.

Offline Karnak

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guns dispersion, D9 tested
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2004, 10:15:54 PM »
OK.

I ran this test:

All Aircraft:

Set convergence to 275 for all guns.

Drive cross country and position as level as possible facing north by using a hill.  Note, the tail wheel must not cross the ridge or the aircraft will simply roll down the other side.  This prevented me from getting the aircraft to be completely level.

Set the target to 100 yards.

1a) Fire the cannon.

1b) Fire the machine guns, if any.

Set the target to 275 yards.

2a) Fire the cannon.

2b) Fire the machine guns, if any.


RESULTS:

Fw190D-9:
1a) Cannon rounds impact below the gunsight center, in two clusters level with eachother corrasponding to the cannons.
1b) Machine gun rounds impact on the crosshairs in one tight cluster.
2a) Cannon rounds impact on the crosshairs in a cluster that makes each cannon indistinquishable.
2b) Machinegun rounds impact on the crosshairs in a cluster.

N1K2-J:
1a) Cannon rounds impact below the gunsight center, in two clusters level with eachother corrasponding to the cannons.
1b) NA
2a) Cannon rounds impact on the crosshairs in a cluster that makes each cannon indistinquishable.
2b) NA

Mosquito Mk VI:
1a) Cannons impact below the pip in a tight cluster.
1b) Machine guns impact on the pip in a tight cluster.
2a) Cannons impact on the pip in a cluster.
2b) Machine guns impact on the pip in a cluster.

Spitfire Mk Vb:
UNABLE TO RUN TEST.

CONCLUSION:

At 100 yards the target is detecting the elevation of the gunsight from the cannons themselves.  It is not detecting a drop in the rounds fired.  The cannons are not spraying randomly, nor are there any appriciable differences between the MG151/20, Type 99 Model II or Hispano Mk II at 100 or 275 yards.


NOTE: I use historical gunsights.



Secondary findings: ;)

The N1K2-J's landing gear are very weak and buckle easily.

The Mosquito Mk VI does not turn to the right using the rudder at low speed while on the ground.

The Spitfire Mk Vb is unstable for ground handling.  The Spitfire Mk Vb's nose obstructs the forward view excessively making fine positioning difficult.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2004, 10:19:29 PM by Karnak »
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Offline DoKGonZo

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guns dispersion, D9 tested
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2004, 10:01:47 AM »
OK ... there is a difference in the tests. I didn't set the target range (don't even know what that command does - it ain't in the online help), I just fired as I would normally in the arena. And my P38 convergence was set to 600.

Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2004, 10:15:13 AM »
.target XXX - where XXX is the distance - If XXX = 0 then the target is gone.
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Offline hitech

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guns dispersion, D9 tested
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2004, 10:42:11 AM »
DokGonZO: Also you will see some strange modeling effects if you are sitting still on the ground or if you are using the auto pilot.

For a general test you are better off flying by hand and testing at a set speed.

Offline DoKGonZo

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guns dispersion, D9 tested
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2004, 11:47:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
DokGonZO: Also you will see some strange modeling effects if you are sitting still on the ground or if you are using the auto pilot.


OK ... that would explain a lot, then. Just kind of figured that the P38 would be a pretty reliable testbed with the tricycle gear and centerline mount and all.

Thanks.

Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2004, 12:55:13 PM »
Just checked out gonzoville ... very cool and interesting site.
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Offline Midnight

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guns dispersion, D9 tested
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2004, 03:01:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
The guns convergance is adjusted for sea level with the plane stationary.
HiTech


OK.. How about a function that will allow the plane to be jacked level for gunsight and convergence testing in the hanger, on the ground, where the gun crews actually did the work?

-----

Also, anyone doing gun testing, the faster you fly, the greater the discrepency in actual bullet range. It varies based on muzzle velocity, but it still factors in a little. Hence HiTech's statement about B17 chin / tail gun comparison.

Offline phookat

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guns dispersion, D9 tested
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2004, 04:42:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GODO
Go and test 109 mk108, you will have good laughts. Not a single tracer passing near the center, not a single tracer even going in the vertical of the center, all to the left or to the right. That with the 109 stoped and bullet by bullet. Is that the new way to increase gunnery difficulty??


I tried this and saw this also.  However, I thought the differences were pretty small.  I wonder what the dispersion was actually like in real life--these aren't exactly sniper rifles.

I'd like to see this as accurately modeled as possible, of course.  But if there has to be error--I'd rather err on the side of a little too much rather than too little.  Much prefer having to close in further for the shot, if by doing so we get rid of 2k 31337 sn1perz.

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2004, 07:06:26 PM »
Karnak, good test.

Dok, I suspect the difference between your test and Karnaks is that he set the target to his covergence range.. his results make sense to me.  I'm not sure how Mandoble got his results, I'll run my own test on the LW planes when I get back to my house in a few days.  

I will say it seems more difficult for me to hit with any gun, which was explained earlier by the change in the modelling (less chunky planes).  

Haven't really noticed any difference in the "flight performance" of any round, I have noticed that the Mk 108 doesn't do as much damage as it used to though.

Offline DoKGonZo

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guns dispersion, D9 tested
« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2004, 10:34:29 AM »
HT said there would be annomolies with ground tests (which I can imagine since the model is built to hand in-flight dynamics). So that pretty much answers my questions.

Still, I can see where this can lead to confusion. The idea of a gun calibration mode on the ground, where the plane is jacked up to be horizantal with a target downrange (which could be moved fwd and back and which recorded hits like a paper target) is good. Not just so people can get things set up the way they want, but so that new players can really learn about how their guns work. I also think that with such a tool you'd see more players designing custom gunsights for each plane since they'd have the tools to accurately put in range markers.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2004, 03:55:34 PM »
Quote
OK.. How about a function that will allow the plane to be jacked level for gunsight and convergence testing in the hanger, on the ground, where the gun crews actually did the work?


 Actually, this is a function I've been wanting for a long time.

 Not only it is practical, and gives a chance to compare differences in gunnery between stationary, ground-level convergence tests by comparing it with the bull's eye during aerial gunnery.. perhaps provide some info so that any possible misunderstandings are properly explained by test results...

 ...it also adds a lot in immersion factor! Like the ground crews have done in real life, you sit by your plane, adjust its convergence, fire some test shots and see  how it comes out..!

 How about it HT? I know it won't ever be a priority implementation, but I hope you give it a thought :)

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #43 on: August 08, 2004, 07:32:29 PM »
Yea, that'd be pretty cool.  I give it two thumbs up, wish we could get it.  Couldn't be that hard to program, I wouldn't think (but then, I'm no programmer).

Offline hitech

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guns dispersion, D9 tested
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2004, 09:39:25 AM »
The programing time would not be worth what it would add to the game.

HiTech