Author Topic: 38 damage model? (Read 1040 times)

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #15 on:** August 04, 2004, 06:11:01 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by eilif
i have been sticking on niks and spits tails very well lately in the p38, ya it turns better, but maybe its also because spits and the sort stall allot more now.

Since the torque model was fixe in AH2, single engine planes should have a tougher time in stall fights. There's a trick you can do with a Zeke/Zero if you get caught in a turn fight with one, just get it into a looping stall fight and the P-38 should be able to get some pretty good shots in. Only recommended as a last ditch resort if you can't build seperation from a Zero/Zeke by putting nose down and diving away.

ack-ack

IronDog · « **Reply #16 on:** August 04, 2004, 07:43:13 AM »

I have managed to get the 38 into a lot of stalls,and pulled out before hitting the deck most of the time.I just kill the engines,center the stick,and work opposite rudder.I take hits from all different angles,so my input wont be of much help.I would say,that if I get hits,one of the recipients is going to be the pilot:D Geez you would think that the law of averages would let me get missed now and again.
IronDog
475th Fighter Group "Satans Angels"

SlapShot · « **Reply #17 on:** August 04, 2004, 11:13:49 AM »

I appreciate the tips that you guys have brought forward as to how you have regained control over the spin, but as the Capt'n has stated ... those are extra-ordinary proceedures that really shouldn't have to be employed.

Also, the conditions that are causing the spins should also be considered extra-ordinary.

I currently don't have any buttons on my HOTAS that will allow me to separate my engine throttle controls nor shut both engines off ... maybe I will have to do this, but would much prefer that whatever is wrong be fixed.

The "shut the engine off" proceedure is what bothers me the most. With counter-rotating props (at the same speed), netting zero torque, would/should have the same effect as you are seeing when shutting both engines down.

I feel that something is still wrong and only hope that HT and crew can nail it down eventually.

Burnm · « **Reply #18 on:** August 04, 2004, 01:58:10 PM »

Slapshot are you using auto combat trim?If so you might want to try trimming it yourself.THe auto trim model doesnt work well when you push the 38 past its "normal" flight envelope. I trim the 38 myself and havnt gotten into an uncontrolable spin in AH2 yet,although I havnt been flying much.As for the damage model the tail does seem to come off kind of easy,I also notice that the majority of my pilot wounds seem to come from P-51's.Anybody else notice that?Have any idea why that would be? Burnm

SlapShot · « **Reply #19 on:** August 04, 2004, 02:19:12 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Burnm
Slapshot are you using auto combat trim?If so you might want to try trimming it yourself.THe auto trim model doesnt work well when you push the 38 past its "normal" flight envelope. I trim the 38 myself and havnt gotten into an uncontrolable spin in AH2 yet,although I havnt been flying much.As for the damage model the tail does seem to come off kind of easy,I also notice that the majority of my pilot wounds seem to come from P-51's.Anybody else notice that?Have any idea why that would be? Burnm

Hey Burnm ... I learned awhile ago from Silat and Delirium that using "Combat Trim" on the P-38 is not the right thing to do and have manually trimmed the beast from that point on. I know some very successful P-38 pilots still use Combat Trim, but I know it doesn't work for me.

Most spins are usually at slower speeds ... I have elevator trim all the way up, to keep the nose up and sometimes the stall is immediately introduced when I need to pop flaps in addition to the elevator trim. In AH1 I could get down to 2 notches of flaps with no problems, but it is almost as good as instant death in AH II ... at least for me.

From reading some of the stuff and links that the Capt'n has provided, the stalls/spins that we get into are impossible scenarios.

I forget which link it was, but it was described that when the P-38 reaches the stall point, the plane would not snap spin, but rather buffet and could continue the buffet far longer than the pilot could stand it. At this point, all the pilot had to basically do was push nose down and it was remedied.

I am nowhere near an authority on the P-38 and its flying characteristics, but from what I have read, I believe that there is something still wrong and hope to see it addressed when time allows.

Burnm · « **Reply #20 on:** August 04, 2004, 07:27:58 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SlapShot
[BMost spins are usually at slower speeds ... I have elevator trim all the way up[/B

Hey slapshot I dont know diddly bout flyin the 38

but that sounds like the elevator position that auto trim would probably have you in.I rarely trim it all the way in either direction,try a more nuetral position,it might help.Burnm

Murdr · « **Reply #21 on:** August 04, 2004, 07:53:57 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Burnm
Hey slapshot I dont know diddly bout flyin the 38 but that sounds like the elevator position that auto trim would probably have you in.I rarely trim it all the way in either direction,try a more nuetral position,it might help.Burnm

Same as burnm here. I keep it nuetral except under compressed conditions.

killnu · « **Reply #22 on:** August 04, 2004, 08:31:13 PM »

i use combat trim all the time:D i dont see big difference, cept doing more work when using manual. oh well.
~S~

Raptor · « **Reply #23 on:** August 04, 2004, 08:33:22 PM »

I have not had that many problems with stalls in the 38 lately. Once I upgraded and first started playing AHII, I stalled alot. The more I played the less I stalled. The only time I stall badly is when I lose an engine in a turn, then I cut the other engine and pull out. I lose about 500-1000 ft.
I can kill the average spitV pilot easily in a TnB fight. The seafire has become pretty popular lately and its about the same. Against good spit pilots p38 cant turn nearly as good; I rely on manouvers and the fight against spitV/seafire is always a good fight with mixed results.
The tail seems to come off very easily in alot of planes lately. I would like for it to be fixed, not only for the P38, but P47 too. I would say the P38 has a glass tail, and the P47 has a plywood tail.

SlapShot · « **Reply #24 on:** August 05, 2004, 08:15:17 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Burnm
Hey slapshot I dont know diddly bout flyin the 38 but that sounds like the elevator position that auto trim would probably have you in.I rarely trim it all the way in either direction,try a more nuetral position,it might help.Burnm

Sorry I didn't make myself more clear.

As soon as I take off, Combat trim is turned off and I manually trim from that point on. At no time during any sortie in the P-38, do I use Combat Trim.

When I am knife-fighting or in a furball, I will tend to manually trim elevator up to keep a nose up attitude depending upon the situation. In fights like that, that is where I get slow and that is when the stalls get me.

Once I have reversed the enemy, I immediately trim back to neutral or slightly above.

I appreciate the tips, but still, don't you guys believe that the stalls/spins we are seeing are somewhat unnatural for the P-38 and there is something wrong ?

Burnm · « **Reply #25 on:** August 05, 2004, 10:33:45 AM »

origanally posted by Slapshot: "When I am knife-fighting or in a furball, I will tend to manually trim elevator up to keep a nose up attitude depending upon the situation. In fights like that, that is where I get slow and that is when the stalls get me"

Sorry bud just trying to help,I realize you turn combat trim off but then you say you had the nose trimmed all the way up.The point im trying to make is that IF you had combat trim on in a prolonged turn fight it would move the elevator to the position your using manually.I personally never trim the nose that far and apparently neither does murdr.We use a more neutral elevator position,dont trim the nose all the way up.It might not turn quite as well but its not gonna get in that nasty stall either.I havnt experienced the nasty stall your talking about and i suspect its because your trimming the elevator too far.Just a suggestion but give it a try.But thats just my opionon.Burnm

Captain Virgil Hilts · « **Reply #26 on:** August 05, 2004, 10:55:43 AM »

The stall isn't coming from nose up trim. I don't use combat trim, and I only use nose up trim to recover from a steep dive. Rarely do I ever trim up much at all.

debuman · « **Reply #27 on:** August 05, 2004, 11:01:34 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by SlapShot

I appreciate the tips, but still, don't you guys believe that the stalls/spins we are seeing are somewhat unnatural for the P-38 and there is something wrong ?

It seems like the only way to answer this would be to get someone who's had extensive flight experience in the 38 to try the Aces High version and give their input. Maybe someone could contact that lucky guy Steve Hinton that gets to fly all the warbirds for Planes of Fame in CA, and see if he would evaluate it ofr us...?

SlapShot · « **Reply #28 on:** August 05, 2004, 11:04:01 AM »

Ahhh ... now I understand where your coming from Burnm ... sorry for being so dense.

Hmmmmm ... I am seeing a trend here ... Tonight I will try to not to use so much elevator trim up. That might be causing the spins, but I still think that the spins are NOT supposed to happen in the first place.

Thanks for the tips guys ... even thought one of ya ... dont know diddly bout flyin the 38 ...

SlapShot · « **Reply #29 on:** August 05, 2004, 11:06:24 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by debuman
It seems like the only way to answer this would be to get someone who's had extensive flight experience in the 38 to try the Aces High version and give their input. Maybe someone could contact that lucky guy Steve Hinton that gets to fly all the warbirds for Planes of Fame in CA, and see if he would evaluate it ofr us...?

Well .. I have always takin' the Capt'n for his word, and it seems as though he has very good access to many P-38 pilots/aces and from what he has said, those guys accounts don't agree with what we are seeing.