The Kerry's outsourcing overseas

[demaw1]

AMAZING, heinz has nothing to do with heinz becuz of trust

   chaney has everything to do with halaburton trust or no

     Kerry says any company that outsources is a benedict arnold.....except us of course we do it to help the poor american people


  can anyone spell....S..P..I..N..

[Sceadu]

First,  Teresa Heinz Kerry married into the Heinz family.  Her first husband, the actual heir to the Heinz fortune, was a Republican senator from Pennsylvania.

 Second, she runs the Heinz Foundation Trust, a charitable organization.  She does not run the Heinz companies.  Her sons do; and they both support John Kerry, even though their father was a Republican.

 Third, outsourcing of American jobs refers to closing down American operations and moving them overseas solely for the purpose of saving on labor costs, typically where the product isn't intended for an overseas market.  For example, outsourcing call center jobs to India when the call center is for U.S. tech support.  Outsourcing does not refer to foreign subsidiaries doing business in other countries.

  Fourth, because someone brought up NAFTA, the problems with the current trade agreement are not entirely due to the agreement itself.  Many concerns result from lack of enforcement of the regulatory provisions in the agreement - particularly the environmental and labor standards portions as applied to Mexico.  Canada only agreed to NAFTA after the inclusion of much tougher standards; and they are quite likely to pull out of NAFTA if the U.S. doesn't start pressuring Mexico to abide by the standards as agreed.

  Finally, I find it appalling that people can allow themselves to become so misinformed about simple facts.  At least make an attempt to gather information from more than the usual biased news sources; whether those sources are to the left like the Nation or to the right like Fox.  Getting information from one biased source in an election year is a sure way to become just another sheep in the herd.

[Staga]

For many manufacturers outsourcing is only way to stay in business; they can't stay competitive with other manufacturers if these are importing products from countries where cheap labour is available.

That's capitalism; if you don't like it move to NK or Cuba.

[Sceadu]

It's not capitalism; it's corporate capitalism which is a beast of an entirely different color.  An example of capitalism is an entrepreneur creating a business.  An example of corporate capitalism is Microsoft, or one dear to the hearts of old Air Warrior players, Electronic Arts.  Big difference between plain old capitalism and what corporations (and the misinformed) refer to as capitalism.  In capitalism, a free market is a good thing.  In corporate capitalism, a free market is a bad thing unless you're being watched by a government anti-trust task force or you're the underdog trying to compete with a corporate giant.  In capitalism, under a free market, if you want to move your operations overseas to save on labor costs, then don't expect to receive tax breaks and corporate welfare for doing so.  In corporate capitalism, if you want to move jobs overseas to save on labor costs, then you convince the gullible public it's really about old-fashioned capitalism, make sure you've bought enough public servants to keep your tax breaks, claim your American workers are overpaid, ship the jobs somewhere that doesn't have environment laws and where you can use cheap child labor chained to their looms so they won't run away (has happened, folks, as recently as just 10 years ago in Pakistan), then ship the completed and often inferior product back to the U.S. where you sell it at the same price you were selling it when the "overpaid" Americans were making it, and which, sadly, some of them now can't afford because you laid them off, but who cares because the boardroom is still done in expensive mahogany, the board members with their multi-million dllar compensation packages will all be dead before anyone really figures out that this is entirely unsustainable economically, and besides the gullible public believes it was all done in the name of good ol' American capitalism.  Uh huh.

  If you want to discuss capitalism, then I'm all for it. Just don't refer to what corporations do as capitalism; because it isn't.  Try reading some Smith and Keynes and von Mises.  Then read some Bakunin and Proudhon and Kroptkin.  And if you get you opinions about capitalism from Fox News, then beware; because it's owned by one of the poster children for corrupt corporate "capitalism" and by the name of Rupert Murdoch.

[Drunky]

G H E Y

That is what this thread is.

And St. Drunky said, "Go bugger yourselves, each and every one!"

[straffo]

Originally posted by Shuckins
Well...seems to me Heinz could just as easily hire AMERICANS to bottle their ketchup and then ship it overseas.  

Isn't that what they want to force other American companies to do in order to stop "outsourcing?"

Ketchup has a pretty long shelf life.  Instead of hiring foreign workers to bottle it we could keep the jobs here.  The only reason for setting up bottling plants in foreign countries is to SAVE MONEY.

Disagree , it's not to save money it's because a bottle made in the US won't be competitive compared to a local production

[Staga]

Originally posted by Sceadu
blaah blaah blaah blaah

Corporations are responsible to their shareholders, not to the country they come from.
Shareholders invest money to the corporation and they also expect to get slice from the profit, bigger the better, and if this means moving to Mexico then so be it.
Too bad if Joe from the neighbourhood loses his job, house and health; I'm not here for helping them to prosper but to make my own life a bit more comfortable

Of course this may not be the best option in a long run but who cares; I want my money RIGHT NOW when I'm still alive!

[Sceadu]

You know what they call animals that can't or won't think for the long term?

  Lemmings.

[X2Lee]

Originally posted by Sceadu
You know what they call animals that can't or won't think for the long term?

  Lemmings.

14 posts in one day, definatly not who he seems.
Weasle it is.

[Sceadu]

I was talking with someone in the game who clued me in about this weasel thing.  Sorry to disappoint you; but nope.  I'm not that person.  I just don't like Bush.  I think he's a sock puppet in a president's suit.  I haven't liked him since he ran for governor here the first time.  I was glad to see him leave Texas.  Won't be thrilled about it when he's sent back here on a permanent vacation up the road in Crawford; but I'd rather have him here than in the White House.  At least when he's on his "ranch" (even though the pinhead reportedly can't even ride a horse) the only people hurt will be the ones who get in the way when he falls off his mountain bike - again.

  Now if this weasel person is also a retired, disabled vet from Texas who hates Bush, then good for him.  I hope he's not a Rangers fan though.  The Rangers have sucked ever since Bush was a minor owner and sitting in the front row picking his nose. Someone caught that one on film.  Too funny.

[oboe]

Originally posted by Sceadu
It's not capitalism; it's corporate capitalism which is a beast of an entirely different color.  An example of capitalism is an entrepreneur creating a business.  An example of corporate capitalism is Microsoft, or one dear to the hearts of old Air Warrior players, Electronic Arts.  Big difference between plain old capitalism and what corporations (and the misinformed) refer to as capitalism.  In capitalism, a free market is a good thing.  In corporate capitalism, a free market is a bad thing unless you're being watched by a government anti-trust task force or you're the underdog trying to compete with a corporate giant.  In capitalism, under a free market, if you want to move your operations overseas to save on labor costs, then don't expect to receive tax breaks and corporate welfare for doing so.  In corporate capitalism, if you want to move jobs overseas to save on labor costs, then you convince the gullible public it's really about old-fashioned capitalism, make sure you've bought enough public servants to keep your tax breaks, claim your American workers are overpaid, ship the jobs somewhere that doesn't have environment laws and where you can use cheap child labor chained to their looms so they won't run away (has happened, folks, as recently as just 10 years ago in Pakistan), then ship the completed and often inferior product back to the U.S. where you sell it at the same price you were selling it when the "overpaid" Americans were making it, and which, sadly, some of them now can't afford because you laid them off, but who cares because the boardroom is still done in expensive mahogany, the board members with their multi-million dollar compensation packages will all be dead before anyone really figures out that this is entirely unsustainable economically, and besides the gullible public believes it was all done in the name of good ol' American capitalism.  Uh huh.

  If you want to discuss capitalism, then I'm all for it. Just don't refer to what corporations do as capitalism; because it isn't.  Try reading some Smith and Keynes and von Mises.  Then read some Bakunin and Proudhon and Kroptkin.  And if you get you opinions about capitalism from Fox News, then beware; because it's owned by one of the poster children for corrupt corporate "capitalism" and by the name of Rupert Murdoch.

Please read and reread until what Sceadu has written sinks in, and compare it to what Staga has written:

Corporations are responsible to their shareholders, not to the country they come from.   Shareholders invest money to the corporation and they also expect to get slice from the profit, bigger the better, and if this means moving to Mexico then so be it.    
Too bad if Joe from the neighbourhood loses his job, house and health; I'm not here for helping them to prosper but to make my own life a bit more comfortable .

To me, it sheds light on which politics and policies are really "anti-American".

[demaw1]

sceadu.......animals


    You say you are a vet.  Ok fine...just wondering if you live in us because you want to or have to.

[TheDudeDVant]

lol man.. Sceadu sure does kickass! Very refreshing too see.. Excellent post on corporate capitilism.... 8)

You guys can attempt to label him anyway you want that will help you to sleep at night.. What ever makes you feel better, but he is not hurling insults and telling spun (lies) truths.. I guess you guys deep down know this hence none of you attempt to challange.. lol

[Shuckins]

And so?  What do you guys espouse in the way of government action?  Shall Congress pass laws forbidding the outsourcing of jobs?

Okay, let's say Kerry is elected and that is done.  We all know what happens next.  The jobs are brought back to American shores, and American workers are hired to fill them.  The price of these marketable goods goes up, and the companies that manufacture them find it much harder to compete against similar products on the global market.  

Sales drop...the value of the company's stock begins to drop.  Falling sales forces the companies effected to lay-off workers.  The foreign trade imbalance becomes greater.  The dollar loses some of its value against foreign currency.

A ripple effect is set in motion, which eventually touches every part of the American economy.

When America begins to close it's overseas factories and bring the jobs home, foreign governments retaliate.  The negative effects of our new policy deepen.

As I said in my first reply, this makes a good campaign issue for Kerry, but in reality is just a sop for the labor unions.  

By the by...how did Kerry vote on NAFTA?  How do you think the governments of Canada and Mexico would feel about a move on our part to axe that agreement?

With U.S. unemployment rates hovering at 5.6 percent, and actually declining...this appears to be a toothless Democratic bogey-man.

Why should major changes in business policy be forced on our corporations when the population of the U.S. enjoys one of the highest standards of living in the world?  Why should we give serious consideration to such proposals that are made by highly educated people who have made careers out of learning all the wrong lessons from life?

The disdain exhibited towards our corporations is an extension of the class-warfare hostility traditionally manifested by the left towards the rich.  Not all corporations are evil and greedy.  To suggest otherwise is cynical and arrogant.

[oboe]

The problems you describe Shuckins are what I think make this problem such a sticky one.   It sounds like either way, American workers will lose, and how can that be good for our country?

Personally I'm not in favor of such legal restrictions or prohibitions.   Usually when barriers are thrown up, some way is found around or underneath them.    I'd rather see incentives than barriers.    Or maybe a combination of both.

I asked in a different thread, but got no response:   Why are many Hondas and Toyotas made in the USA?   (Marysville, OH has a Honda plant and I think Toyota has one in Kentucky, and there are probably others-Nissan?).    If the cost of manufacturing is cheaper elsewhere, why are these plants here?    And how has in affected local economies?    Has it been beneficial for consumers and workers?    Honda and Toyota seem to be doing well.

Given how great this country is, and I do mean its a great country - think about our accomplishments just in the last 50 years - why don't we have the absolute top, highest standard of living in the world?     What is misfiring in our system that we can only make it into the top 10, and not place first, given everything else we have going for us?

Also I think a persistent 5.6% unemployment rate is no toothless bogeyman - its a serious problem, and add to that the fact that the method may undercount the people who are out of work, and also doesn't reflect the people who take lower paying jobs out of necessity.    And it doesn't help to have the administration take about reclassifying frying burgers or running the till at McDonald's as manufacturing jobs.

I agree that all corporations can't be evil, I am sure there are some ethical ones out there somewhere.    Just have to look harder maybe.      The traditional disdain of corporations from the Left may be gaining ground in the Middle - as more and more items in the news about skyrocketing CEO pay at corporations doing poorly, scandals like Martha Stewart-OMClone, Enron, Tyco, Adelphia, etc.   It ain't right, so why is it happening so often?

I think I read somewhere recently that Canada is considering pulling out of NAFTA itself - can anyone confirm that?