Author Topic: Aces HIgh II: 1st Camp After Action Report  (Read 4130 times)

Offline Zazen13

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« Reply #180 on: August 04, 2004, 04:54:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by X2Lee
Voss was one of the best MA players this game ever saw.
He couldt fight his way out of a wet paper sack in the DA tho.

To me he was a cherry picking ack hugging runny bunny that talked a lot and backed it up little. Oh and a wuss.

(Runny bunny trademark from Storch)


Possibly, I have no idea, I never had an encounter with him in the MA. But, if you are correct, it is probably an extreme example of what I pointed out earlier about the DA. Todd agreed that the DA type engagements only bring into play a very small subset of skills required to be successfull in the MA.

Zazen
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline X2Lee

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« Reply #181 on: August 04, 2004, 05:04:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Zazen13
Possibly, I have no idea, I never had an encounter with him in the MA. But, if you are correct, it is probably an extreme example of what I pointed out earlier about the DA. Todd agreed that the DA type engagements only bring into play a very small subset of skills required to be successfull in the MA.

Zazen


But you still dont get it that just because folks dont fly to keep a
high KD ratio or to even survive the MA that its not easy to do
you place all your skills on having a good rank in the DA
whereas I wasnt here 5 months and had ranks in the low 20s

Anyone can play like that its just way boring to a lot of folks and it no indication of skill level.

To be good in ma.... Take a few bombs and hit a city...
Make a goon run or 2. Take a PT boat and use the rockets on a town. Go to attack mode take ordinance to a city.... rtb, rearm do it again
Up a f6 on a cv thats being attacked, fly around in ack, get mega kills. Get a fast fighter... cherry pick and run go land  do it some more....
Way too easy and mega boring to lots of folks.

Dont do this and just play for fun...  you are labled as a lesser pilot.
BTW when piloting REALLY matters? When you take your family up.
Guess what? I never lost a plane yet.....

Now on another note, I checked out lexus and I believe its your shades account, I was wrong about your padding with that account. But its a shame that the rank means so much to your ego that u need 2 accounts to fly like a dweeb, nikis and f6s and
fun fights.....

I think you should learn to fight square then you will gain respect , regardless of your score.

Offline Zazen13

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« Reply #182 on: August 04, 2004, 05:17:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by X2Lee
But you still dont get it that just because folks dont fly to keep a
high KD ratio or to even survive the MA that its not easy to do
you place all your skills on having a good rank in the DA
whereas I wasnt here 5 months and had ranks in the low 20s

Anyone can play like that its just way boring to a lot of folks and it no indication of skill level.

To be good in ma.... Take a few bombs and hit a city...
Make a goon run or 2. Take a PT boat and use the rockets on a town. Go to attack mode take ordinance to a city.... rtb, rearm do it again
Up a f6 on a cv thats being attacked, fly around in ack, get mega kills. Get a fast fighter... cherry pick and run go land  do it some more....
Way too easy and mega boring to lots of folks.

Dont do this and just play for fun...  you are labled as a lesser pilot.
BTW when piloting REALLY matters? When you take your family up.
Guess what? I never lost a plane yet.....

Now on another note, I checked out lexus and I believe its your shades account, I was wrong about your padding with that account. But its a shame that the rank means so much to your ego that u need 2 accounts to fly like a dweeb, nikis and f6s and
fun fights.....

I think you should learn to fight square then you will gain respect , regardless of your score.


You're confusing Fighter Rank with the other ranks, I have not discussed combined overall rank in this thread. I agree that success in the other 3 ranks are just a matter of accomplishing a few annoying 'chores' each camp. Fighter rank, however, is a different ball of wax entirely. Fighter Rank requires alot of diverse skills (flying ability, gunnery, SA, TA) and either some patience/discipline or alot of free-time or a combination of both.

I run down the list of the Top 100 Fighter pilots each camp, I have never once seen a pilot on that list I considered a weak or inept pilot. All of the pilots I knew on that list from some first-hand experience (either fought with them or against them on more than one occassion) I considered very strong sticks. So, fighter rank must mean 'something'.

Also, as I've said about 5 times now, there are alot of wonderfull examples of pilots in the MA, who quite obviously are not at all concerned with their fighter rank, but who consistantly rank in the Top 100 in Fighter. Flying for K/D really isn't important, so long as you kill alot. Shane is the best example because he has one of the worst K/Ds in the top 100, he landed only 19 of 231 sorties last camp. But, he still finished 45th in Fighter rank. He did this, not because he was trying to fly for rank, but simply by virtue of how efficient and effective a killer he is.

This is why I have a problem with people who say those who rank highly in fighter must be score potatos/dweebs/rank potatos/KD dweebs/Alt-monkeys or whatever. The simple truth is, efficient and effective killing MA pilots are going to rank highly in fighter whether they specifically try to or not.

Zazen
« Last Edit: August 04, 2004, 05:19:29 PM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline X2Lee

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« Reply #183 on: August 04, 2004, 05:25:09 PM »
.

This is why I have a problem with people who say those who rank highly in fighter must be score potatos/dweebs/rank potatos/KD dweebs/Alt-monkeys or whatever. The simple truth is, efficient and effective killing MA pilots are going to rank highly in fighter whether they specifically try to or not.

Zazen [/B][/QUOTE]

No you misunderstood my post, I am not saying you must be a dweebscorepotatoaltmonk to be a good fighter rank.
I am saying you are a dweebscorepotatoaltmonk. your alter ego to play for fun is an indication of just that along with your
score complex.

Like I said, learn to fight square then you will be respected.

Offline Zazen13

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« Reply #184 on: August 04, 2004, 05:37:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by X2Lee
.

This is why I have a problem with people who say those who rank highly in fighter must be score potatos/dweebs/rank potatos/KD dweebs/Alt-monkeys or whatever. The simple truth is, efficient and effective killing MA pilots are going to rank highly in fighter whether they specifically try to or not.

Zazen


No you misunderstood my post, I am not saying you must be a dweebscorepotatoaltmonk to be a good fighter rank.
I am saying you are a dweebscorepotatoaltmonk. your alter ego to play for fun is an indication of just that along with your
score complex.

Like I said, learn to fight square then you will be respected. [/B][/QUOTE]

I could give a flying chunk of rat poontang if I am respected or not, personally. I fly for fun all the time, flying 'realistically' is fun, as flying 'recklessly' is fun sometimes. Why you think we must all be pigeon-holed into one category or another is beyond me. Why you think purposefully flying at a disadvantage is somehow more 'noble' is beyond me. Like most here I only have X number of free hours a month to play AH. I find flying realistically garners me, personally, more of that intangible 'fun factor' per unit time than any other mode of approaching the game.

Todd corrected me in a thread 6 months or so ago about super-imposing my idea of fun upon anyone else. Don't assume just because you, some, many people don't find a particular mode of playing fun that I do not. Don't think that I am somehow masochistically self-inflicting some kind of cruel torture upon myself for the sake of a pretty rank. The fighter rank is just a natural by-product of me having fun in the game, they are not seperate and distinct.

It is because of this, alot of people including myself, can easily attain a high fighter rank even playing recklessly. That is also fun to a point. Some find it the most fun. I personally make a point to fly recklessly sometimes just to keep my knife-fighting edge sharp. I do not do it because I am escaping some self-made prison of 'realistic' flying. I do it so on those occassions I find myself engaging at a disadvantage or in a 1 vs. 1 that is a bad plane match-up, I have a greater chance for success and survival.

Zazen
« Last Edit: August 04, 2004, 06:12:28 PM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline X2Lee

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« Reply #185 on: August 04, 2004, 05:43:01 PM »
I could give a flying chunk of rat poontang if I am respected or not, personally.



I like donuts.

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #186 on: August 04, 2004, 06:23:48 PM »
Well, I started flying combat sims about 3 years ago....Warbirds offline against AI aircraft.  All I learned was how to use basic controls.

Had a brief, two-week fling with MSCFSII.  Didn't like the miniature arenas and the difficult to use set-up and the fact that it was almost impossible to tell when you were hitting the target.  

Then one day while surfing the net for information on ACM I ran across a reference to AH.  Downloaded it immediately.  After only two days to learn the basic set-up I was hooked.  Flew H2H for nearly a year before forking over actualy money to participate in the ma.

Joined CVPoppie's squad the 169th SSF flying for the rooks.  Had flown with him in h2h.  Seldom paid attention to numbers at that time.

Anyways, I remember one day in particular on the pizza map.  I noticed that one base after the other was falling on the west coast to rook attack.  Decided to join up with the flight to lend some assistance.

What a revelation that was!  There were about a dozen guys, undoubtedly from one of the top squads, capturing bases like a well-oiled machine.  They had it down to a science.  Each pilot had a specific task, whether ack suppression, cap, or town reduction.  They even had dedicated goon pilots, who usually took off about 5 minutes behind the main strike.  

I didn't think to time these operations, but the total average time it took them to capture a base could not have been more than 10 to 12 minutes.  Of course some of these bases were lightly defended, but the nme country never put up a determined effort to defend them.  There were never more than 6 nme players in defense at any one time

That was the best example of organization and teamwork that I have witnessed in the two years I have been playing AH.  

Why was this possible?  The argument that they were hording doesn't hold water.  Six defending nme pilots should have been able to disrupt such a small-scale attack.

The answer, I believe, likes in a point made in another thread.  Rook pilots, as a group, tend to be older than the pilots of the other two countries.  As proof, I offer the following facts/obeservations.  

Rook numbers tend to be at their highest starting in the afternoon and reach a peak about 8:00p.m. and then begin to taper off slightly.  The pilots that log on at these times are, I believe, working class stiffs who have had their dinner and are trying to relax with a couple of hours of flight-sim gaming.

Secondly, I believe that people of like ages tend to gravitate together in the same country.  The older pilots (I am 50) tend to be put off by a lot of the smack talk and juvenile style game play of the younger pilots.  I don't mean that as a slam against anyone that's just the way it is.  

Thirdly, older pilots tend to be more into air combat history and tactics and are more likely to work together to achieve a goal.  Younger players are game oriented and want action immediately, while the older pilots don't mind taking the time to set things up.

So, in conclusion, I think these facts are reflected, at least somewhat, in the game play and k/d ratios of each country;  Rooks have a larger group of older and more experienced pilots, while the Bish have more of the younger group, and the Knights lie somewhere in between.  Greater numbers may play some part in the overall results, and I am guilty of complaining about the numbers disparity at times myself.  But the daytime numbers are usually fairly even, while the Rooks have more substantial numbers at night and on the weekends, which reinforces my belief that they are older, working stiffs.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2004, 06:26:57 PM by Shuckins »

Offline Zazen13

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« Reply #187 on: August 04, 2004, 06:59:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Well, I started flying combat sims about 3 years ago....Warbirds offline against AI aircraft.  All I learned was how to use basic controls.

Had a brief, two-week fling with MSCFSII.  Didn't like the miniature arenas and the difficult to use set-up and the fact that it was almost impossible to tell when you were hitting the target.  

Then one day while surfing the net for information on ACM I ran across a reference to AH.  Downloaded it immediately.  After only two days to learn the basic set-up I was hooked.  Flew H2H for nearly a year before forking over actualy money to participate in the ma.

Joined CVPoppie's squad the 169th SSF flying for the rooks.  Had flown with him in h2h.  Seldom paid attention to numbers at that time.

Anyways, I remember one day in particular on the pizza map.  I noticed that one base after the other was falling on the west coast to rook attack.  Decided to join up with the flight to lend some assistance.

What a revelation that was!  There were about a dozen guys, undoubtedly from one of the top squads, capturing bases like a well-oiled machine.  They had it down to a science.  Each pilot had a specific task, whether ack suppression, cap, or town reduction.  They even had dedicated goon pilots, who usually took off about 5 minutes behind the main strike.  

I didn't think to time these operations, but the total average time it took them to capture a base could not have been more than 10 to 12 minutes.  Of course some of these bases were lightly defended, but the nme country never put up a determined effort to defend them.  There were never more than 6 nme players in defense at any one time

That was the best example of organization and teamwork that I have witnessed in the two years I have been playing AH.  

Why was this possible?  The argument that they were hording doesn't hold water.  Six defending nme pilots should have been able to disrupt such a small-scale attack.

The answer, I believe, likes in a point made in another thread.  Rook pilots, as a group, tend to be older than the pilots of the other two countries.  As proof, I offer the following facts/obeservations.  

Rook numbers tend to be at their highest starting in the afternoon and reach a peak about 8:00p.m. and then begin to taper off slightly.  The pilots that log on at these times are, I believe, working class stiffs who have had their dinner and are trying to relax with a couple of hours of flight-sim gaming.

Secondly, I believe that people of like ages tend to gravitate together in the same country.  The older pilots (I am 50) tend to be put off by a lot of the smack talk and juvenile style game play of the younger pilots.  I don't mean that as a slam against anyone that's just the way it is.  

Thirdly, older pilots tend to be more into air combat history and tactics and are more likely to work together to achieve a goal.  Younger players are game oriented and want action immediately, while the older pilots don't mind taking the time to set things up.

So, in conclusion, I think these facts are reflected, at least somewhat, in the game play and k/d ratios of each country;  Rooks have a larger group of older and more experienced pilots, while the Bish have more of the younger group, and the Knights lie somewhere in between.  Greater numbers may play some part in the overall results, and I am guilty of complaining about the numbers disparity at times myself.  But the daytime numbers are usually fairly even, while the Rooks have more substantial numbers at night and on the weekends, which reinforces my belief that they are older, working stiffs.


Very interesting observations!

Zazen
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #188 on: August 04, 2004, 07:29:58 PM »
Thanks Zazen.  I do try.

Offline Hajo

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« Reply #189 on: August 04, 2004, 08:37:31 PM »
First......it's a game.

Second...in any endeavor usually more means better..specially games.

Third....a great deal of Bish...myself and squadmates really don't look at Stats.  Wherever that rank lands so be it.  I just looked at mine and some of my squadmates.

Over half of squad was over 3.0 k/d......most of our squad flies at different times...usually not more then 3 of us on at any one time.
I rarely get in a vehicle.....and rarely get in a bomber.  Most of my squadmates are the same...so ranking per capita will prolly be skewed.

Also....if you check our squad roster you'll find quite a few of us that have been here for over 4 years.  During Beta or shortly afterwards.  Some of the names are familiar to most.  Shamus, Vati, Rob53....Bullzeye, MrWulf, EDO and so forth.  Good sticks who just like to have fun and play.  I generally fly alone looking for a good fight....hopefully a 1 on 1.  Since our online numbers are low winging is infrequent...specially in Summer when we have better things to do.  If you find myself or any of the above you'll have a fun fight no matter the outcome.  You just might find yourself in our sights....and then again we in yours.

It's a game.....someones going to comeout on the shortend.
It's usually the guy with 5 Rooks on his 6 when he's trying to get the Goon  :cool:
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Offline beet1e

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« Reply #190 on: August 05, 2004, 10:27:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by mars01
It could be that the rooks have a bunch of radish safe flyers that have a horse***** K/T because they rarely engage without an advantage.  I.e.  You, Beetle, ... etc.  This would easily explain alot.  
My last complete tour was T49. Check out my K/T for that tour (attack mode). You'll see that I ranked #13 with about 17 k/h. When you've done that, no doubt you will want to somehow qualify the reliability of the k/t stat to suit your agenda. :rolleyes:

Final fighter rank was #91 which I achieved without flying any of the advantage planes (P51,LA7,Spit etc).

You crow about flying at a disadvantage but then you fly LA7 and Spit9 advantage planes - indeed, these are your top two planes.

You crow about your elite T&B skills, "mixing it up on the deck"/whatever, but I have you on film setting up a B&Z pass and steaming in at more than 410mph in a F4U. Nothing wrong with that - I'd do it too, but you are guilty of actions for which you castigate others.

In short, you say one thing and you do another.

In this world of change, it's good to see that some things stay the same. Mars is one of them. :aok
« Last Edit: August 05, 2004, 10:32:16 AM by beet1e »

Offline mars01

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« Reply #191 on: August 05, 2004, 10:27:38 AM »
Quote
I have nothing I need to prove, I prove my mettle everytime I up a fighter in the MA. You perceive my not accepting duels from antogonistic and belligerent people as a sign of some weakness on my part. But, you have it backwards, I am not so insecure with myself that I require some sort of contrived contest to decide who is right or who is wrong in an intellectual debate. Wether I kick AKAK's prettythang or he kicks mine in a duel still doesn't answer the question of who is the more accomplished MA player.
But you have a whole lot to say without being able to back it up.  I had some respect for you Zazen because you are a pretty decent guy in the sim.  Some of your blathering I could do without especially when you make poor assumptions and state them as fact based on the flaky scoring system.  But the fact that you can't back up you BS with a friendly little duel makes your score very suspect and everything else that comes out of your mouth.  Your trying to make this some kind of personal vendetta thing so you can justify running from the challenge.  It's not.  What do you have to lose by squaring off against someone else in a duel?  And don't give me that set a precedent BS.  You staked a claim I say back it up.  Until you do, you go back to the Big Mouth no substance pool.  Sorry Bud it's your call.  


As for Shuckins...

What a surprise Pizza Map and people taking undefended bases easily.  Have you flown for any other country other than Rooks?

Offline mars01

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« Reply #192 on: August 05, 2004, 10:33:54 AM »
LOL I knew you would get you panties in a bunch Beetle that is why I included you.  Nice Bite.

As fo...
Quote
You crow about your elite T&B skills, "mixing it up on the deck"/whatever, but I have you on film setting up a B&Z pass and steaming in at more than 410mph.
I never said I dont BnZ.  I said BnZ doesn't take a whole lot of skills and most guys that BnZ all the time can't T&B.  The guys that do both I have alot of respect for.

The problem it that on maps like Trinity and Pizza where the bases are so spread out, all one can do is BnZ because there are no furballs to be had.  I am not going to fly a sector or more on the deck only to get jumped by 4 guys ack hugging.

Try again Beetle.  I'm sure you have just as many films of me on the deck turning and burning.  It seems you have a nice collection of my films, I think your sweet on me.  ( Blushing ) lol.

Quote
My last complete tour was T49. Check out my K/T for that tour (attack mode). You'll see that I ranked #13 with about 17 k/h. When you've done that, no doubt you will want to somehow qualify the reliability of the k/t stat to suit your agenda.  

Final fighter rank was #91 which I achieved without flying any of the advantage planes (P51,LA7,Spit etc).
 

Beetle I could care less about your score, it means nothing.  When I run into you or even Zazen for that matter where the fights are then maybe my opinion will change until then keep score whoring with the rest of them I'd rather keep socking it out where the actions is.  :aok

As for you crying about plane selection, it means nothing and if you had a clue you would realize my main TnB is a spit V or FM2.  When I BnZ I'll do it in a Hog, 51 or A5.  Smoooch:lol
« Last Edit: August 05, 2004, 10:40:19 AM by mars01 »

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #193 on: August 05, 2004, 10:50:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by mars01
if you had a clue you would realize my main TnB is a spit V or FM2.  When I BnZ I'll do it in a Hog, 51 or A5.  Smoooch:lol
Oh I know - I noticed all the EasyMode™ planes at the top of your list - P51, LA7, Spit9, N1K - LOL! :lol

What is a furball? 5v5 or 50v50? The 5v5s are fine, but those swarm jobs are not my cup of tea. I like the larger maps - particularly Pizza & Trinity. I do not like the small maps at all, and if that is all we had, I would cancel my account.

Offline Wadke

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« Reply #194 on: August 05, 2004, 11:06:07 AM »
DA is a fun tool and i have learned a lot from it and some of it carries on into the MA except the SA aspect.

Oh btw look into my stats....they are horrible because i have lost a lot of interest in staying alive and in the game mostly....but i'll still wax your arse given a chance :D