Aces HIgh II: 1st Camp After Action Report

[mars01]

Originally posted by:Zazen
As far as duelling is concerned, I am estimating I've been asked, cajoled, threatened, coerced, manipulated, goaded and pleaded with to duel egomaniacs of various shapes, colors, sizes and descriptions at least 86,752 times in ten years for the purpose of adolescent, ego assuaging, noodle measuring.

Guess what? I grew out of that in High School...

I'll tell you like I have told the 86,751 before you. If you want to duel in fun, for educational purposes, we'll discuss it privately and perhaps set a time amicable to both of us one evening. Otherwise, the only duel you will get out of me is when you have the misfortune of coming across me in the MA. The improptu duels in the MA, where you only know who popped your cherry when you see, "You Have Been Killed By Zazen", is more my style.

Dude this is WEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAK!!!!!!. You are talking a lot of smack!!! You are hiding behind flaky stats and then when you are asked to back it up Man vs Man you back down like some little radishcat. If you can publicly thrash someone around like this you should have the balls and skills to go to the DA and fight it out.

The fact that you won't put your money where your mouth is tells alot about your faith in those numbers you are throwing around.

Bad Form my friend bad form.  You should stop smack talking if you can't do the walking.

[BUG_EAF322]

I myself ranked 68th in fighter not too long ago on my wife's account just goofing around, yankin' & bankin' in TnB planes while learning the F6F. I made no special attempt to live, or in any way enhance my K/S, K/T or Hit %. I ranked in the top 100 accidentally, strictly by virtue of whatever innate skill and ability I possess, all the while flying aircraft I was totally unfamiliar with relatively early in my AH career.

hmm second wifes account sure zazen

u are a score potato no doubt u even make it a study

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by X2Lee
[

I fly during the day alot, with a scenario  not unlike AKAK's during late night when I also fly regularly, do you see me peddling that around as an excuse? Nope.

Zazen

its twice as easy to survive the MA in the daytime [/B][/QUOTE]

I beg to differ, espeically during the summer. Nothing but a bunch of kiddies on late-night, most of the adults are in bed, getting sleep, for work the next day.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by X2Lee
someone posted stats on planes the other day

the planes u fly were all over 1.5 kill ratios. Some because they were blue ack bunnies some because they were runners.

the 38 had a .82 k/d ratio. so anyone who has a ratio in a 38 thets higher thsn that is above average 38 pilot.

You fly a 38 around awhile and you will see its a BFT
But you just said  its too hard to fly.
And ur a daytime weenie

I fly night and day and day is more than twice as easy

My planes are not all over 1.5 that is a complete lie first of all, you need to work on your reading skills before you spout off nonsense. Secondly, the 38 has a low average because it is the pork n' auger plane of choice for the building battlers.

Tour 54:

F6F-5's K/D:1.01:1
P51D's K/D:0.97:1
Typhoon's K/D:1.55:1
P47D-40's K/D:0.78:1

The only plane I regualrly fly with anything vaguely close to a 1.5:1 K/D is the Typhoon.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
hmm second wifes account sure zazen

u are a score potato no doubt u even make it a study

How does playing on my wife's account necessarily make me a score potato? Often, the only reason I play on my wife's account is because she is Knights and I use her account to help knights vs. Bishops when their numbers get espeically bad.

Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by mars01
Dude this is WEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAK!!!!!!. You are talking a lot of smack!!! You are hiding behind flaky stats and then when you are asked to back it up Man vs Man you back down like some little radishcat. If you can publicly thrash someone around like this you should have the balls and skills to go to the DA and fight it out.

The fact that you won't put your money where your mouth is tells alot about your faith in those numbers you are throwing around.

Bad Form my friend bad form.  You should stop smack talking if you can't do the walking.

It has nothing to do with my testosterone levels. It has everything to do with pandering to the ego's of people who would love nothing more than to get out of a losing  BBS debate by flinging their member out on the table in some feeble attempt to pretend their argument or rationale has merit based on the outcome of staged duel in the DA at 5k. That is what I call 'weak'.

The first thing people want to do with anyone when they are losing a debate here, or in the MA, is duel in 5k spits or whatever. The DA does not represent a debate resolving tool to me, the DA represents a fun, learning tool to be used with friends to me. I have never and will never use the DA to settle disputes in opinion or logical arguments...ever.

Zazen

[RTR]

LOL

"runny bunny"

That one is gonna stick around!

Zazen, before you dig your hole deeper, you oughta go find something more productive to do with your time.

btw....what is the wifes in game handle?
enquiring minds want to know.

RTR

[Dead Man Flying]

Stats don't take into account how someone flies.  It is much easier to kill with numbers or altitude (or at least to not die) than it is when outnumbered and outalted.  In addition, just about every statistic suffers when one consistently plays at a disadvantage; being outnumbered on the deck forces one to take whatever shot presents itself no matter how low the probability of hitting.  As such, hit percentage suffers.

Also keep in mind that players may "game" fighter rank by only selecting fighter missions when they know they'll have a higher chance of obtaining quick, easy kills.  The rest go under attack missions.  Players who make no distinction between fighter missions and attack missions thus face more difficulty in pumping up their stats.  

Vulching likewise improves all stats categories.  Can we honestly state that a team able to put twice as many players in the air as any other team would somehow vulch only as often or less often than those other sides?  Any discrepency in base ownership indicates vulching opportunities.  If Rooks, for example, own twice as many bases as both Knights and Bishops, then by definition they have had twice as many vulching opportunities due to attacking and capturing those bases.

Comparing statistics between players to prove "skill" thus proves little.  It might indicate skill, and in cases where both players fly the same plane in the same way in similar circumstances, we may say that it provides a valid comparison.  But since AKAK and Zazen fly different planes in different ways under totally different circumstances, how can we say who is better or not?  Keep in mind that I'm not suggesting that AKAK is better than Zazen or that Zazen is better than AKAK, but rather I'm saying that you can't judge who is better by stats or rank alone.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[mars01]

Originally posted by Zazen13
It has nothing to do with my testosterone levels. It has everything to do with pandering to the ego's of people who would love nothing more than to get out of a losing BBS debate by flinging their member out on the table in some feeble attempt to pretend their argument or rationale has merit based on the outcome of staged duel in the DA at 5k. That is what I call 'weak'.

Dude you brought in your score against his...

Originally posted by Zazen13
There is not one single category in Fighter Piloting you are even close to me in, including Kills/Time. I won't even bring up the fact that you have a year and half headstart on me in Aces High on top of all that....Time for a reality check there spud.
Zazen

His reply was...

Again, these stats do not reflect the skills of a player. I fly aggressive, my intent is on the kill, not to 'simulate' the day in the life of a fighter pilot. I don't play for rank or 'stats', I play for the kill and killing is what I'm good at. If you really think you can take me or pretty much anyone else in this thread 1v1, time to back up your claims. After all if the Rookies are such masters of the air, you should have no troubles with us little folk.

Your reply to the above...

Originally posted by Zazen13
You don't get very many kills, you are slow at killing in a great climber and your aim is mediocre with a plane that is really easy to aim with. I have looked up your performance since you began playing Tour 21 October 2001. There is nothing beyond poor to mediocre in there. You fly only one plane, and you don't even outperform people with similiar experience in lesser planes. Whether you fly with score in mind or not is not the point. You admit you fly to kill, but you don't do that very well. Do you fly to aim?

So you boast that score proves how good a player is.  Any you believe that your score is so much better than his so you must be the better pilot.

So when the rubber meets the road you can't back it up.  I am not defending him for any other reason than you stand by score but you can't stand by actual performance.  This tells me you have no faith in what your flaky score promotes otherwise you would be able to meet the challenge and prove that you deserve the score you are so highly promoting.

Put up or shut up I think is the way it goes.  Sorry man  you backed yourself into this hole.  

If you slayed him in the DA then your score does have some value, if he slayed you then your score and most of your assumptions don't.  That's all that needs to be said.

All of your assumption that you state as fact are based on score,  it has nothing to do with testosterone and everything to do with getting out there and backing up the checks your mouth is cashing.

You are losing the argument by not backing up your claims with your ability.

It's nothing personal I think your an ok guy, but I do think if people are going to throw score and their ability areound like it means something, they should be able to back that up.

[DipStick]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Stats don't take into account how someone flies.  It is much easier to kill with numbers or altitude (or at least to not die) than it is when outnumbered and outalted.  In addition, just about every statistic suffers when one consistently plays at a disadvantage; being outnumbered on the deck forces one to take whatever shot presents itself no matter how low the probability of hitting.  As such, hit percentage suffers.

Also keep in mind that players may "game" fighter rank by only selecting fighter missions when they know they'll have a higher chance of obtaining quick, easy kills.  The rest go under attack missions.  Players who make no distinction between fighter missions and attack missions thus face more difficulty in pumping up their stats.  

Vulching likewise improves all stats categories.  Can we honestly state that a team able to put twice as many players in the air as any other team would somehow vulch only as often or less often than those other sides?  Any discrepency in base ownership indicates vulching opportunities.  If Rooks, for example, own twice as many bases as both Knights and Bishops, then by definition they have had twice as many vulching opportunities due to attacking and capturing those bases.

Comparing statistics between players to prove "skill" thus proves little.  It might indicate skill, and in cases where both players fly the same plane in the same way in similar circumstances, we may say that it provides a valid comparison.  But since AKAK and Zazen fly different planes in different ways under totally different circumstances, how can we say who is better or not?  Keep in mind that I'm not suggesting that AKAK is better than Zazen or that Zazen is better than AKAK, but rather I'm saying that you can't judge who is better by stats or rank alone.

-- Todd/Leviathn

BINGO!

[mars01]

Stats don't take into account how someone flies. It is much easier to kill with numbers or altitude (or at least to not die) than it is when outnumbered and outalted. In addition, just about every statistic suffers when one consistently plays at a disadvantage; being outnumbered on the deck forces one to take whatever shot presents itself no matter how low the probability of hitting. As such, hit percentage suffers.

Also keep in mind that players may "game" fighter rank by only selecting fighter missions when they know they'll have a higher chance of obtaining quick, easy kills. The rest go under attack missions. Players who make no distinction between fighter missions and attack missions thus face more difficulty in pumping up their stats.

Vulching likewise improves all stats categories. Can we honestly state that a team able to put twice as many players in the air as any other team would somehow vulch only as often or less often than those other sides? Any discrepency in base ownership indicates vulching opportunities. If Rooks, for example, own twice as many bases as both Knights and Bishops, then by definition they have had twice as many vulching opportunities due to attacking and capturing those bases.

Comparing statistics between players to prove "skill" thus proves little. It might indicate skill, and in cases where both players fly the same plane in the same way in similar circumstances, we may say that it provides a valid comparison. But since AKAK and Zazen fly different planes in different ways under totally different circumstances, how can we say who is better or not? Keep in mind that I'm not suggesting that AKAK is better than Zazen or that Zazen is better than AKAK, but rather I'm saying that you can't judge who is better by stats or rank alone.
 

But one trip to the DA would prove one way or another what weight score carries.  I coulds care less who the better pilot is, it's not that important.  But if all Zazens assumptions this far are to hold water then he should be able to prevail in the DA.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by mars01


If you slayed him in the DA then your score does have some value, if he slayed you then your score and most of your assumptions don't.  That's all that needs to be said.

All of your assumption that you state as fact are based on score,  it has nothing to do with testosterone and everything to do with getting out there and backing up the checks your mouth is cashing.

You are losing the argument by not backing up your claims with your ability.

First off, I never said I was a better pilot, being a better pilot would be a measure of flying skill (ACM knowledge and application), as far as I can tell there is no statistic that measures just ones flying skill (ACM knowledge and application). I  implied I am a more 'successfull' MA pilot. As we all know there is more to being a very 'successfull' MA pilot than just raw flying ability (SA, gunnery, tactical awareness, etc.). Taking this into account, how does a staged duel at 5k in whatever plane prove who is, in fact, the more successfull MA pilot?

As far as I can tell a staged 5k duel does not require even the tiniest droplet of Situational Awareness or Tactical Acuity (the decisions you make during a complex multi-plane engagement), all it requires is some ACM knowledge and a little aim. ACM knowledge and a little aim doesn't go too far by itself in the MA without alot of SA and TA.

On the other hand, looking at someone's fighter rank over an entire camp or series of camps does give you a pretty decent idea of how successfull they are in the MA whether they are flying for score or not, generally speaking. Of course there are exceptions to this as Todd pointed out, especially his example of the person who does not seperate his Fighter sorties from his Attack sorties. But, for the AKAK/Zazen comparison this was obviously not the case. We both seperated ours.

I do disagree with Todd on the MA numbers issue and how it impacts fighter rank sub-categories, I actually find it easier to kill more planes faster when outnumbered. My K/D may suffer a little, but it's usually so high anyways I've long since reached the point of diminishing returns.The lower K/D is nowhere near enough to outweigh the much higher K/S and K/T a target rich environment provides. Of course, there is a threshold of diminishing returns if the disparity becomes too great, but except for Sunday nights this threshold is rarely reached in the MA.

Zazen

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by mars01
But one trip to the DA would prove one way or another what weight score carries.  I coulds care less who the better pilot is, it's not that important.  But if all Zazens assumptions this far are to hold water then he should be able to prevail in the DA.

Well, yes and no.  Dueling and 1v1 skill is one aspect of MA skill but not all of it.  Situational awareness and, to some extent, survival instinct also matter in the MA.  Dueling alone can't measure these things.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[mars01]

First off, I never said I was a better pilot, quote me where I said that I dare ya! I implied I am a more 'successfull' MA pilot. As we all know there is more to being a 'very successfull' MA pilot than just raw flying ability (SA, gunnery, tactical awareness, etc.).

Your back is against the wall and you are pandering.

Ok so you are a better MA pilot than he is because your score is higher.

What this means is that you have a better ability to manipulate your score in the MA where you can pick your engagements that you can easily win and not need a whole lot of skill.

To go 1 vs 1 against an opponent where the only advantage you have is your own skill is the only proof of how good you are in any arena.

You have just proven what everyone in this thread has said. Score means very little and does not accurately reflect anything other than one persons ability to manipulate their own score.

As far as I can tell a staged 5k duel does not require even the tiniest droplet of Situational Awareness or Tactical Acuity, all it requires is ACM knowledge and a little aim. ACM knowledge and a little aim, doesn't go too far on its own in the MA.

I disagree if your SA sucks you will suck in MA and in DA.  But since your MA skill has given you such great SA as proven by your score you should have an advantage over anyone you duel with.  So you are saying because you aren't testing your SA to the max that Dueling has no value or ability to prove one skill vs another?  Please explain.

On the other hand, looking at someone's fighter rank over an entire camp or series of camps does give you a pretty decent idea of how successfull they are in the MA, generally speaking.

The only thing a fighter rank tells us based soley on the numbers is that people are good at picking fights they can easily win.  Without being able to back their score up in a single pilot Vs pilot engagement there is no proof otherwise.  If you are as good as your score says in the much more chaotic MA then you should have an easy time 1 vs 1.  If you can't fight decently in a 1 vs 1 than you are just good at picking easy fights and not much else.

You shouldn't be so afraid of the DA honestly.

[mars01]

Well, yes and no. Dueling and 1v1 skill is one aspect of MA skill but not all of it. Situational awareness and, to some extent, survival instinct also matter in the MA. Dueling alone can't measure these things.

I agree Lev, but all the basic and advanced skills and ones mastery of them most defiantely are tested in a duel.  All the environment factors are not of course are not.

But again if a person has such a great score and that score means anything do you agree or disagree they should be able to back it up in the DA?