Aces HIgh II: 1st Camp After Action Report

[rod367th]

zazen posted numbers you guys think he's slinging watermelon at you. Numbers are just that numbers. Maybe zazen Has opened a Can of worms here. Do I see a round robin duel coming  say 10 on 10 matches based on country top 10 agianst country. And just to make it fair match  only 202 or any other plane with just 303's that way no 1 ping kills. Then and only then will skill show thru.




  Numbers tho zazen can never be used here as written in stone. Some have used shades accounts to beff up scores. Have seen guys land 25kills in a p40 1 sortie shooting squadmate. Seen others kill shade account bombers you chk thier score and they are only one killing account,and account has never killed anyone. Not saying that any top pilot does this just saying numbers can be abused.







 Last You are so right, When I first came to game. Rooks were always out numbered, Seen nights it was 240 bishops 170 knights on 60 rooks. But rooks had better k/d and more kills. NOW THIS IS REASON ROOKS HAVE REP OF FLYING HIGHER THAN OTHERS THEY HAD TO TO SURVIVE AND OLD HABITS DIE HARD. but to those who complain you are the one looking foolish when you complain.Some nights 262's were costing bishops 968 perks (highest i've seen) and this was well before reset time. So I for 1 think overall skill goes to rooks, But I also think alot of good pilots leave to go rook because (now just 2cents here) game play and team work. ROOKS would be even better if they threw out morphy the sl*t.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
K/D ratio tells us nothing of skill.  At this level of measurement the only assertion we may reasonably make is that Rooks consistenly achieve a higher K/D ratio than other teams.  We can posit why this might be all we want, but without more precise measurements we cannot claim that "skill" or anything else causes this.

Wishing it does not make it so.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Maybe talent was not the best choice of words. I will go back to my earlier vernacular and use 'effectiveness". Rooks are more 'effective' than either of the other two teams, independant of MA numbers. Why they are more 'effective' regardless of numbers? I will leave this to everyone's conjecture. From my personal experience and the available data I conclude this dramaticically higher effectiveness is a result of more talent, skill and superior tactics. As for the validity of the K/D ratio as a measuring tool. It is/was a good enough tool for the Air Forces of every country of the world during wartime, so it's good enough for our virtual air forces here in simulated war.

That being said, I would love to have more a more comprehensive body of statistical data to bring into play. As I have no doubt it would lead us to similiar conclusions.

Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by rod367th
zazen posted numbers you guys think he's slinging watermelon at you. Numbers are just that numbers. Maybe zazen Has opened a Can of worms here. Do I see a round robin duel coming  say 10 on 10 matches based on country top 10 agianst country. And just to make it fair match  only 202 or any other plane with just 303's that way no 1 ping kills. Then and only then will skill show thru.




  Numbers tho zazen can never be used here as written in stone. Some have used shades accounts to beff up scores. Have seen guys land 25kills in a p40 1 sortie shooting squadmate. Seen others kill shade account bombers you chk thier score and they are only one killing account,and account has never killed anyone. Not saying that any top pilot does this just saying numbers can be abused.







 Last You are so right, When I first came to game. Rooks were always out numbered, Seen nights it was 240 bishops 170 knights on 60 rooks. But rooks had better k/d and more kills. NOW THIS IS REASON ROOKS HAVE REP OF FLYING HIGHER THAN OTHERS THEY HAD TO TO SURVIVE AND OLD HABITS DIE HARD. but to those who complain you are the one looking foolish when you complain.Some nights 262's were costing bishops 968 perks (highest i've seen) and this was well before reset time. So I for 1 think overall skill goes to rooks, But I also think alot of good pilots leave to go rook because (now just 2cents here) game play and team work. ROOKS would be even better if they threw out morphy the sl*t.

Without using the "C" word I understand that there are some 'abusers', but given the volume of data being analyzed the relative impact of a few 'abusers' is statistically insignificant. We can also assume that they are more or less evenly distributed.

As far as flying higher being the sole cause or even a contributing factor. If flying high were enough to make one 'effective', any dweeb with 10 minutes spare time would suddenly become 'effective' , this, obviously,  is not the case. In any event, your supposition that Rooks fly higher than everyone else is purely sujective and unsupported by any data. I fly on all sides, from my 'subjective' observations there are just as many alt-monkeys on Bishops as Rooks or Knights.

Zazen

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Zazen13 Maybe talent was not the best choice of words. I will go back to my earlier vernacular and use 'effectiveness."

[/B]

Even "effectiveness" does not necessarily describe what you're seeing.  You would need a measure like K/S or K/T to measure effectiveness.  It's possible, for example, that Rooks achieve a higher K/D ratio than other countries, but they fly twice as many sorties with twice as many kill-free landings as everyone else.  I would not necessarily consider that "effective" or efficient flying.

We need to carefully consider the level of measurement of this variable.  We can only state that Rooks consistently achieve a higher K/D ratio than the other teams.  We cannot, no matter how compelling it may seem, state otherwise without more precise measures.

As for the validity of the K/D ratio as a measuring tool. It is/was a good enough tool for the Air Forces of every country of the world during wartime, so it's good enough for our virtual air forces here in simulated war.

[/b]

I'm not saying that K/D ratio is an invalid measure.  You just need to keep in mind what it measures and the problems inherent in reading too much into it.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[X2Lee]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying


Even "effectiveness" does not necessarily describe what you're seeing.  You would need a measure like K/S or K/T to measure effectiveness.  more precise measures.



This is my take. Rooks are runners. I will fight you till i am bingo ammo then ditch. I will stay up till im out of fuel then ditch.
A rook will rtb with 2 kills that he vulched. They seem to think it makes them fighter pile its. To me its a game to play

I say I can beat 90% of the rooks in an even 1v1
And I am just an average nit.

[SlapShot]

I conclude this dramaticically higher effectiveness is a result of more talent, skill and superior tactics.

After finishing our whirlwind tours of each country, I cannot agree with this.

My observations and summary on the Rooks effectivness is due to their teamwork and their comraderie. Rooks, for the most part, cover each other better than any country that I have flown with.

Even when we were just new to the Rooks, if I was in trouble, 2, 3, or 4 guys would drop out of the sky and clear you, and most times without having to ask. They are on the constand look-out for each other. It's part of their overall country character.

I would surmise that when the Rooks were in the bucket getting slammed day in and day out, and when they decided to do something about it (RJO), they created a country wide bond that still holds them together to this very day.

Its not superior talent, skill, or tactics ... altho they posses all these skills ... no different than any other country ... it's comraderie that puts them over the top.

I really enjoyed my stay with the ROOKS, but we are back with the Knights and will remain here for quite some time. The Knights have a good bit of comraderie, but not at the level of the Rooks.

I missed half of our tour with the Bish while on vacation, so I cannot really comment on them. In the short time I was there, I did get to fly with some great guys/sticks and for the most part enjoyed my stay with the Bish.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by SlapShot
I conclude this dramaticically higher effectiveness is a result of more talent, skill and superior tactics.

After finishing our whirlwind tours of each country, I cannot agree with this.

My observations and summary on the Rooks effectivness is due to their teamwork and their comraderie. Rooks, for the most part, cover each other better than any country that I have flown with.

Even when we were just new to the Rooks, if I was in trouble, 2, 3, or 4 guys would drop out of the sky and clear you, and most times without having to ask. They are on the constand look-out for each other. It's part of their overall country character.

I would surmise that when the Rooks were in the bucket getting slammed day in and day out, and when they decided to do something about it (RJO), they created a country wide bond that still holds them together to this very day.

Its not superior talent, skill, or tactics ... altho they posses all these skills ... no different than any other country ... it's comraderie that puts them over the top.

I really enjoyed my stay with the ROOKS, but we are back with the Knights and will remain here for quite some time. The Knights have a good bit of comraderie, but not at the level of the Rooks.

I missed half of our tour with the Bish while on vacation, so I cannot really comment on them. In the short time I was there, I did get to fly with some great guys/sticks and for the most part enjoyed my stay with the Bish.

Very interesting observations Slapshot. I have found the exact same thing. Rooks just naturally perform mutual support roles. I fly alone 99% of the time, the only reason I can get away with this and survive like I do in the MA is because Rooks look out for other Rooks. Often I have been alone in the prescence of several enemy when another Rooks comes along and without saying a word we start loose deucing quite efficiently. You call it comraderie, but what it really is, is superior tactics.

The natural employment of superior tactics has a profound effect on how engagements play out. Working in tactical concert Rooks increase their individual effectiveness exponentially. Even if Rooks are not numerically superior locally the impromptu use of superior tactics more than makes up for it. If Rooks do happen to also be locally superior numerically well...we know what happens, alot of enemy get a fresh plane real quick.


Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying


Even "effectiveness" does not necessarily describe what you're seeing.  You would need a measure like K/S or K/T to measure effectiveness.  It's possible, for example, that Rooks achieve a higher K/D ratio than other countries, but they fly twice as many sorties with twice as many kill-free landings as everyone else.  I would not necessarily consider that "effective" or efficient flying.

We need to carefully consider the level of measurement of this variable.  We can only state that Rooks consistently achieve a higher K/D ratio than the other teams.  We cannot, no matter how compelling it may seem, state otherwise without more precise measures.

[/b]

I'm not saying that K/D ratio is an invalid measure.  You just need to keep in mind what it measures and the problems inherent in reading too much into it.

-- Todd/Leviathn [/B]

I agree that K/D is only a partial measure. I post these threads in part hoping that HTC will complete the more comprehensive statistics engine  that has been, "Coming Soon" for over two years now.

Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by X2Lee

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying


Even "effectiveness" does not necessarily describe what you're seeing.  You would need a measure like K/S or K/T to measure effectiveness.  more precise measures.





I say I can beat 90% of the rooks in an even 1v1
And I am just an average nit. [/B]

Reallly? 90% Wow! That's a pretty broad stroke there buddy!

For someone who fights to the death, and never lands your K/T is terrible! You have 5 kills/hour last camp, that is worse than mine, and I land virtually all of my kills. You also only get 1 kill per sortie, similiarly unimpressive for someone who is supposedly better than 90% of Rooks and fights to the death. I guess you never have to wait very long to get in a fresh plane?



Zazen

[rod367th]

okay i take it back zazan is sling chit. lol







 by the way zazen its not cheating killing a shade account, now looked down on if you get caught by players but its thier money thier rep if caught.....Just dumb but I know I would love my customers to but a 2nd sign. to make them look better.






best comeback from a guy killing a shade account I've seen is bs I'll have skuzzy ban you tomorrow for this. I said wow your going to call skuzzy and say gd rod367th caught me killing shade account i want him banned?




 heres best story of beefing up score catching. I up from a base that flashed for a second, think noe since its no where near enemy base. A set of bombers up ask where hes going he says don't know yet. Next thing hes taking off agin 2 mins later as i'm searching for noe inbound. I spot low dot turn towards it. Over the Radio Coms hey leave the p40 alone he's mine. I said okay have at it. guy takes bombers right to p40 all 3 disappear in seconds. p40 turns and starts to run away. I couldn't catch it since i was in a 110 got close enough to see it was p40. i go back land. guy flying bombers has logged, And on text buffer comes ********** 25kills p40. I go check his squad p40 guy, and find out bomber pilot was in same squad lol. Now I get the he's all mine.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by rod367th
okay i take it back zazan is sling chit. lol







 by the way zazen its not cheating killing a shade account, now looked down on if you get caught by players but its thier money thier rep if caught.....Just dumb but I know I would love my customers to but a 2nd sign. to make them look better.






best comeback from a guy killing a shade account I've seen is bs I'll have skuzzy ban you tomorrow for this. I said wow your going to call skuzzy and say gd rod367th caught me killing shade account i want him banned?




 

I never disagreed with you that this occurs. I did not call it cheating, I referred to it as 'abusing the system'. My contention is that compared to the 500,000 total kills by all countries every camp the statistical impact of a few 'abusers' is miniscule. Even if this abuse were on the scale of 50 people scoring 1,000 kills on 'shades' accounts (almost certainly a huge overestimation) it would still only represent 1% of the total monthly kills in the MA.

Zazen

[X2Lee]

Originally posted by Zazen13
Reallly? 90% Wow! That's a pretty broad stroke there buddy!

For someone who fights to the death, and never lands your K/T is terrible! You got 5 kills/hour last camp, that is worse than mine, and I land virtually all of my kills. You also only get 1 kill per sortie, similiarly unimpressive for someone who is supposedly better than 90% of Rooks and fights to the death. I guess you never have to wait very long to get in a fresh plane?



Zazen

Well the Da will tell the story about yer skill mate. when you ready?
Stat monkey u are.

My broad stroke was on par with your broad strokes.

[RTR]

I have a scoring question.

K/S.does this reflect "landed kills" or All kills landed or not?

Kind of off the subject a bit, but am just curious.

And Zazen, I kind of see where you are trying to go with this, and realize that you aren't deliberately trying to alienate the 3 countries. However, I still disagree wholeheartedly with your assumptions, simply because there are way to many variables to formulate an informed opinion on something like this.

But hey,  whatever floats your boat.

RTR

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by X2Lee


My broad stroke was on par with your broad strokes.

Actually, my broad stroke has data that corroborates it. Your broad stroke is supported by data that contradicts it.




Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by RTR
I have a scoring question.

K/S.does this reflect "landed kills" or All kills landed or not?

Kind of off the subject a bit, but am just curious.

 

Kills per Sorties is simply how many kills you get per plane, including re-arms. Getting a new plane resets this. Whether you land them or not has no impact whatsoever on kills per sorties.

Zazen