Author Topic: Version 0.46 "...where'd my Pony go??"  (Read 1288 times)

Offline fd ski

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Version 0.46 "...where'd my Pony go??"
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2000, 09:11:00 AM »
let's have Spit XIV ( that's 14 for those of you who don't know Roman numberals   ) and 109K-4 got waffels. That will stop the runstang and resolve any of the "best fighter of WWII" calls  



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Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
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Offline Hristo

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Version 0.46 "...where'd my Pony go??"
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2000, 09:28:00 AM »
 

Offline jmccaul

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Version 0.46 "...where'd my Pony go??"
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2000, 09:33:00 AM »
The 51 D was not a super plane.
It could be :
out climbed  
out accelerated  
out paced
out turned
out rolled  
out dived
out gunned


It's major asset was range and was probably the best long range escort of the war in terms of arena play which is more biased towards dogfighting many planes should out perform it. It should still do reasonably well in the arena as it can run away being the fastest plane at the moment. (this will change with the likes of the Mk 14, Tempest, Dora, (F4U-4 ?) )    

Offline dolomite

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Version 0.46 "...where'd my Pony go??"
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2000, 10:18:00 AM »
Hangtime sayeth:

 
Quote
True statement: If the benchmark AC is a dog; this will impact my assesment of the sim.

The assumption here is that the P51 is the benchmark sim, and that E fighting is the best fighting. With all due respect, Hangtime, I think perhaps your Uncle's experience and your connection to the P51 has made you a little too biased.

Ask Gatt what plane should be the benchmark.

Or Leonid.

Or Hristo.

And I'm sure you will hear three different anecdotes as powerful as yours concerning the history and performance of their particular ride. Heck, the Finns even want Brewster Buffaloes (because they were so damn modern and good  ). This is the point to anecdotal evidence; it is too subjective upon which to build a flight model. It can be used as evidence to send the programmer in a direction, but in the end the flight models can only be made with the only true constant-  real-world physics.

Intuitively something has always seemed somewhat wrong with the Mustang in AH. I have stayed out of it for that reason (for the most part). I don't say this to offend, but it is too easy to kill in it in the previous versions. Don't get me wrong, there are some very good pilots flying the mustang (and everything else) but that doesn't mean the flight model was right.

Sometimes the LW guys may irritate with the constant complaining about the relative climbs of the mustang vs. 109, but they too are right. No way the P51D climbed with the late war 109. My opinion, of course.   Numbers can and will verify that opinion, too.

There is one more point relative to game play... once an a/c's flight model has become so overwhelmingly dominate, everyone wants to fly that a/c. That is all our individual choice, but it sure makes a bland game. Still, no complaint here, so long as that particular flight model is supported by evidence (numbers). If however it cannot be supported by scientific evidence, then it should be reworked with all due haste.

In the end, we will always hear the complaining begin when someone becomes proficient in a particular a/c, only to have the flight model "tweaked". We gain an appetite for kills at a comfortable (read: what we're used to) rate. Anything to upset that balance always seems to be "wrong".  

Offline Rude

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Version 0.46 "...where'd my Pony go??"
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2000, 10:31:00 AM »
Hate to go against the tide, however, the P-51D as currently modelled is more than capable flown correctly.....put simply, I do not see anything that I fly against cause any real concern for me.

This ver. holds its E better than all others...perhaps flight school is in order?  I wish I could justify my deaths by blaming the FM....unfortunetly, I die simply because I do something stupid with my aircraft.

Rude

[This message has been edited by Rude (edited 01-15-2000).]

Offline Hangtime

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Version 0.46 "...where'd my Pony go??"
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2000, 12:53:00 PM »
Quote:
 _____________________________ ____________
The assumption here is that the P51 is the benchmark sim, and that E fighting is the best fighting. With all due respect, Hangtime, I think perhaps your Uncle's experience and your connection to the P51 has made you a little too biased.

Ask Gatt what plane should be the benchmark.

Or Leonid.

Or Hristo.

And I'm sure you will hear three different anecdotes as powerful as yours concerning the history and performance of their particular ride. Heck, the Finns even want Brewster Buffaloes (because they were so damn modern and good ). This is the point to anecdotal evidence; it is too subjective upon which to build a flight model. It can be used as evidence to send the programmer in a direction, but in the end the flight models can only be made with the only true constant- real-world physics.
_____________________________ ________________

Excellent points.. absoulutely correct. Thank you.  

Over the course of the last few months I've had some 1,500 rides in the P51D; and when it's turn and climb performance were reduced to the previous revisions level (key word here: REDUCED) I was quite content. I too thought the pony was too 'hot' and knew the FM would be revised. When we got to version 0.45 the Ponys performance seemed to be about where I thought it should be.

...... climb ability significantly reduced; it certainly was not the hottest climber in the sim by any means.

........ acceleration; nope, the Pony had no edge here either. In fact; getting the pony up to speed was an excercise in paitience.

......... It in no way resembled the historicly innacurate low speed turner it was previously in this sim. Ponys should not be Zekes.

.......... top speed?? Yes; it had an edge; I expected it to have an edge. The edge was reduced; no beef here.

........... Energy retention; yup; as with speed; I expected the plane to have an edge. It was one of the notable diffrences in this AC over it's contemporaries.  Laminar wing; remember? This also saw change.

In short; it was and still is my opinion that the plane presented to us as the version 0.45 Mustang had finally had it's teeth pulled and the plane was about where It should be as far as FM feel and overall performance.

The Mustang I'm flying now in Version 0.46 has been detuned again; most notably in energy retention. Too far in my opinion.

And it is just an opinion... biased; it reeks with subjective observation unsupported by numbers. As I said initialy; I know I don't have a leg to stand on.

But I'll say it again anyway... this Pony don't feel right. The Pony in the revison immediately prior to this one did.

Sadly.. its unfortunate that I spent so much time in it in the previous versions. I wonder how I'd feel about the current plane walking into the sim today; flying it for the first time. Would I find it a lackluster performer having NOT had the experience of flying the Version 0.45 Stang?

Yup. I think so.

Excellent points from all of you.. really; I do appreciate the feedback.

I understand the point of historical perspective is very much predisposed to the eye of the beholder. Yes; I'm pre-disposed to view my fav plane as the benchmark for the sim.. and my perspective is assailble from many diffrent equally jaundiced points of view.

But I have to stand on one hill or another; I choose to stand on the entirely American presumption that the P51D was the pre-eminient E fighter of the war.. and in my humble biased opinion; this revisions P51d is not in keeping with that presumption.

Salute!

Hang

------------------
PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline jmccaul

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Version 0.46 "...where'd my Pony go??"
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2000, 01:21:00 PM »
Fishu said:
==========================================
Ahh.. so nice to see stang and spitfrie weenies whining and complaining how their superior aircraft has become one step closer to the human technology
============================================

It seems youl just plain like whining no matter what the source is, you like whining, you like listening to others whining  

 

Offline Hangtime

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Version 0.46 "...where'd my Pony go??"
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2000, 02:10:00 PM »
ROFLMAO..  "..a spades a spade.."

On the other hand, I'd rather see him in here griping with me... not on line whining at me.  

In fairness; the LW boys have had a right to howl.. they have their points to make too, and I agree in prinicpal with them more often than not in regards to relative performance. I'd love to see their much touted fav versions of those infamous LW AC in the sim; the sooner the better.

Nice one tho.  

Hang

------------------
PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline jmccaul

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Version 0.46 "...where'd my Pony go??"
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2000, 07:03:00 PM »
We all like to see our planes performing well and if they have an a-historical fault i am sure it is vexing so we want to see it fixed. There are many ways of going about it here are some :
<---puts tongue in cheek--->

1)Number crunching[b/]
Form : Poster does extensive tests on each aircraft usually to highlight a point
Result: The numbers in the sim and in the historical tests won't perfectly match due to many variables but the numbers can easily show a large abberation to the developer who will know instantly there is a FM problem so will act quickly.
Main Exponent: juzz  

2)Gut feeling  
Form : Start a thread talking about your feelings on the FM which will start a (hopefully constructive) debate.
Result : This way brings attention to an area of modelling which the developer may look into. If the posters gut feeling is (historically) correct the area will likely be improved if not he does not have a leg to stand on. The developer will not run of to check the FM every time they see a thread like this but they will surely check the more reasonable claims out.
Main Exponent: Hangtime

3)The Whine
Form: The poster has a pet plane/country and any wiff of a the FM not being totaly in line with their over inflated biased expectations of their beloved plane(s) they will take every oppertunity to voice this opinion loudly wheather it is correct / incorrect. If the poster has no real facts to support his/her/it's current disatisfaction with said plane they will resort to sarcastic comments about the overmodelling of other planes. If other planes don't appear overmodelled they scour notice boards looking for the merest suggestion of others that these "other" planes are undermodelled when found they will post about the whining supporters of this plane. It is required when posting about other planes the whiner uses the word dweeb at least 6 times (not including the amusing new name for the "overmodelled" plane which they have cleaverly come up with e.g. dweebstang). When talking of the undermodelling of their own plane they'll use phrases such as : artifically handicapped, persecuted, we always get a raw deal (which is why i am a great pilot). These people will turn any sniff of a FM debate into their personal crusade.
Result: *yawn*
Main Exponent Many are guilty to some degree but the award has to go to........ Fishu

<---removes tongue from cheek--->

                                                                 

[This message has been edited by jmccaul (edited 01-15-2000).]

Offline Hangtime

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Version 0.46 "...where'd my Pony go??"
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2000, 08:46:00 PM »
ROFLMAO..

dammo.. when yah put it that way...

(hang looks around)

"....anybody seen my legs??"

Salute!

Hang (looking thru yellowpages for rudder pedals for the handicapped)
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline dolomite

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Version 0.46 "...where'd my Pony go??"
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2000, 11:43:00 PM »
...suddenly (being a frequent poster) I shift uneasily... whining eh?....  

Offline Fishu

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Version 0.46 "...where'd my Pony go??"
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2000, 12:34:00 AM »
 
Quote
2)Gut feeling
Form : Start a thread talking about your feelings on the FM which will start a (hopefully constructive) debate.
Result : This way brings attention to an area of modelling which the developer may look into. If the posters gut feeling is (historically) correct the area will likely be improved if not he does not have a leg to stand on. The developer will not run of to check the FM every time they see a thread like this but they will surely check the more reasonable claims out.
Main Exponent: Hangtime

Funny... I haven't seen hangtime bring anymore facts out than I have...
Of course I could go find the books from library which I have been reading and tell some *facts*.

When suddenly allie plane loses the "feeling", its suddenly a big thing and the LW planes that has lost "feeling" few times already, are just a crap.. yeah.. allies won, how can any of their weapon be under germans techonology.

 
Quote
If the poster has no real facts to support his/her/it's current disatisfaction with said plane they will resort to sarcastic comments about the overmodelling of other planes.

Just if you didnt know, Jmccaul, I have been reading books.
..and why do you support this whiner hangtime then?
Hes been whining nonsense also alot.
(hes so cool ta/da/yah guy.. right? kids..)

Offline Hangtime

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Version 0.46 "...where'd my Pony go??"
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2000, 02:22:00 AM »
Hang leans against his cane; watching a guy diggin furiously next to the flightline.. Hang has an amazed expression on his face; and a passerby stops and begins to watch also.

Soon; another pilot, on the way to his aircraft notices the furious digger, and he also stops to stare. Before long a small crowd of pilots gather; all of them transfixed bt the guy with the shovel tearing away at the ground.

"Who's that with the shovel?" one asks.

"One of the guys from the Axis squads, I think." comes the reply. "..seen him flyin that LW hardware.. odd duck; but a good stick they say".

"Well; just what in hell is he doin??" asks a yet another. The dirt is flying fast and furiously from the deepening hole.

Hang looks over; sighs, shakes his head; flicks his cigarette butt into the hole...  

"Looks ta me like he's diggin his own grave."
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline weazel

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Version 0.46 "...where'd my Pony go??"
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2000, 03:15:00 AM »
 LOL Hangtime,   that was pretty good. I`m amazed at how well everyone is getting along with each other,55 yrs after the war and the passions still burn! I`ve seen these kind of debates on AGW turn in to BBQ`s quick-been in the pit a few times myself.   At any rate this shouldn`t become an Allied/Axis thread,we should all want every aircraft modeled as they were in real life,anything else is a mockery of the people who served and died in WW II.

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Offline Hristo

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Version 0.46 "...where'd my Pony go??"
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2000, 04:40:00 AM »
Keep it going, please, funny thread