Version 0.46 "...where'd my Pony go??"

[jmccaul]

Don't take it to hard Fishu it was a bit of a joke (which has elements of truth in)

P.S.  I am not really supporting hangtime in his FM belifes just contrasting the attitudes of people who debate the FM. With training and practice i am sure Hangtime has it in him to progress to level 3 and compete with you   Don't duck your level 3 status it is hard won honour which people must earn, revel in it, hell even put
Fishu - (level 3 debater) in your singnature.    

[Pyro]

The thing I hate the most about whining is that on occasion, a totally valid point can be hidden under so much whine that I don't pay attention to it.  Then I eventually end up looking stupid because I didn't originally see the point as anything more than a whine.  So don't whine, it's counter-productive.

And yes Fishu, you are the poster-boy of whiners.



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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

"The side with the fanciest uniforms loses."

[Hangtime]

(Hiya Weasel! Nice flyin last night!)

Quote:
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At any rate this shouldn`t become an Allied/Axis thread,we should all want every aircraft modeled as they were in real life,anything else is a mockery of the people who served and died in WW II.
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Absolutely! Nice way to put it too.  

Standing here (actually sitting; my legs are missing from well deserved flack bursts earlier in this thread) trying to postulate on what 'was' during the war is very difficult.. even with the benefit of 'the numbers' the results can be entirely out of perspective.

I do recall one common thread that stands out regarding 'feeling' amongst all who ever flew a P51 during or after the war; in combat; on training missions.. or in Pylon Races for over 50 years later:

It is a remarkable plane. It gave the pilot back a feeling unlike any other aircraft he had flown; before of since. That 'feeling' is elusive to describe; defies quantification by raw numbers, cannot be boxed and shipped as a retrofit to other AC.

It was; and is, by all pilot accounts I have read, heard in person, and viewed myself from a postion in the grandstands..  a spectacular airplane, producing in virtually all pilots that flew it instant 'synergy'. (for lack of a better word) The stick forces; the feedback the plane gives; the eager feeling that comes over you as you nudge the plane closer to its limits.. all of this has been described and aknowledged by many many many exponents of the plane; on both sides of the War; during and after.

Sometimes we do have to rely on the second hand reports and comments of the 'old timers' as one put it.. after all; these are the guys that took it into combat and tested their courage, and their AC against the pilots of a country attempting to defend their homeland from destruction. By all accounts they faced a worthy opponet; dedicated; equipped with an arsenal of exceptional AC of their own. None ever said the P51 was found lacking in this mission. To a man they all felt the same way. Surely; this lends some historical creedence to the planes exhalted reputation?

I'd like to thank Westy for putting up this link earlier; and I'll put it up here again, please take the time to read it through, listen to an old man who was there..
 http://www.cebudanderson.com./ch1.htm

Bud Andersons observations are not the exception in regards to the feelings he had for the P51, amongst his peers; his obsevations were the norm. Anybody ever come across an account from a Mustang pilot in combat that varies from this one in substance?

The previous revisions (v0.45) Mustang hit me in exactly that way. It was magnificent; it was spectacular; there was was something to it's 'feel'; and it kept me up till 4:00 am and later for a week straight joyously carving big large high e turns; pushing it to the edge time and again.. I was amazed and impressed by this plane, thrilled to see a game developer had finally captured the 'essence' of this legendary fighter. No other prop sim came close to rendering this plane in that way.. the Mustang legend was finally; at LAST here; ours to enjoy.

Any wonder I bemoaned the loss?  

Hang (level 2; and quite happy there, thank you!  )

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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8


[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 01-16-2000).]

[Hristo]

 

The 109? That was a dream, the non plus ultra.
Just like the F-14 of today. Of course, everyone wanted
to fly it as soon as possible. I was very proud when I converted to it.

General Lieutenant Gunther Rall, 275 aerial victories in WW2

[Hangtime]

Yes; I agree, the 109 was a superb machine in some ways; one of the best in the LW inventory at times and with its many revisions accountably the best the LW had a various stages throught the war. Certainly a worthy match in terms of air combat for a P51.... But it ain't a P51.

Quote:
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The Primitive can also be a weapon.

Lt. General Gunther Rall
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I like Rall. Savvy pilot; great leader. The Germans had their share of skilled operators. They all said pretty much the same thing tho; when faced with superior aircraft or when fighting at a disadvantage (as often seemed to be the case):

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"If he is superior, then I would go home, for another day that is better"

Colonel Erich Hartmann
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Ahhhh.. yes; Quotes can be fun.  

However, the main point of the discussion is not LW vs USAAF; rather it's the modeling of one USAAF plane and how I felt about it's feel that sparked this thread. Wholly subjective drivel you might say; but I thought it was worth some comment.

Yes; the P51 was the principal menace to the LW; IMHO a better plane than a 109 or FW if flown well. But,it's still the pilot that makes the difference.

Quotes:
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"The quality of the box matters little. Success in air combat depends on the man who sits in it."

Manfred Von Richthofen

and:

"Only the spirt of the attack borne in a brave heart will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it might be."

Lt. General Gunther Rall
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Touche'   !

Hang

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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8


[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 01-16-2000).]

[Westy]

 I'm glad this didn't turn into a flame fest  
 Great talks, points and counter points in here.
 BTW. My favorite plane is the P-47. Just saying....

-Westy

[Thorns]

Call me gee-whiz, but I love reading how my Dad's buddies fought WWII.  It's a son's image of his hero and that will never change.
Go ahead and whine about anything you guys want or don't want.......everyone has the option of picking his or her ride.  I have flown all these planes(here), and it's usually not the planes' fault for getting you shot down.  If you use Bob Shaw's rules, I think any of the planes in Aces High will get you back to your home base.  I get goose bumps when I hear the Merlin engine in a Mustang at Oshkosh.....ohhhhhh so cool.  So let the HTC people get finished with what they started.....isn't the tweaking of flight models usually some of the last changes to be made in beta?   Thanks Westy for some good hero reading.

Thorns_Musketeer
CO Musketeer Escadrille

[Hangtime]

If any of you ever get the chance; go to the Reno National Air Races. Its about the only place I can think of where you'll see more than one or two stangs flyin at once.

I've been around planes mosta my life.. seen F4u's, f4F's; buffs and P47's flyin. But when 3 or more Merlin Mustangs go by flat out wingtip to wingtip at 500 feet you stand up and ROAR.. I yelled my lungs out.. jumpin up and down, actin the total nut.

When I gotta hold of myself again and looked around there were 2,000 other people in the stands doin the same thing. Some 60 years old with tears runnin down their faces.

Gotta be seen to be belived. A sensation I'll never forget. Truly magnificent.

Hang
 



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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8

[Hristo]

True, quotes can be fun, bun are not really useful for flight modeling. On another occasion Rall mentioned how good P 51 was too. But then again, he said he preferred 109 over the Dora, etc.

How about Robert Shaw's opinion on P 51 ?Didn't he say how hard it was to dogfight in one ? I also remember his words how it would depart without warning. How it would exit the turn in one direction and instantly enter the turn in another direction.

The 190 was famed for superb control harmny and feel. However, that did not make it a TnB plane.

I noticed how arena was affected by P 51 0.46 FM. The same guys who used to fight my 109 from below in P 51 did not do it in this version. They switched to Spits, Macchis and Nikis.

P.S.
The slow speed Immelmann test in 0.46 is somewhat different than before. In earlier versions p 51 could beat 109 at it. At 200 mph IAS and 15 kft. Now they are roughly the same, one swings to the left due to its torque, the other to its right due to its wing type.

[Hangtime]

Hmmmmmmmm... don't think Robert Shaw ever mentions the P51 per se in Fighter Combat; Tactics and Manuvering, at least not in the first person. In any case, as one othe the 'young puppies', his flying was done with F4's and F14's. And the puppy was a Squid.   Doubtful he ever get behind the controls of a combat ready P51.

For a better accounting of the 'feel' of a Mustang you'd have to check the books by Yeager and Anderson. Yeager was a lead test pilot after the war, as well as an aeronautical engineer; well qualifed to comment on its abilities. Of course; during the war he was a holy terror in one, and flew quite agressivly. He considered its qualites to be exemplary in all flight envelopes. As I recall, he called it an 'honest' airplane, with few bad habits.. and very much as you say "harmonious".

Hang

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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8

[Hristo]

Robert Shaw did fly P 51D, even with ours truly some months ago    

They also did mock dogfights, if I understood it right.

Maybe HT can share some comments with us.

OK, back to the 109 vs P 51D thread.

IMO, P 51D should be better than 109G-10 in  aspects of:

Range,
higher top speed at high alt,
dive,
control feel at high speeds,
cockpit visibility.


109 should outperform it in everything else.


Now it might be easy to understand why P 51 was so appreciated by USAAF in WW2. Its qualities over 109 happen to be the most appreciated qualities of a late war fighter aircraft.

TnB qualities and low speed knife fighting was long gone by then.

P 51D will never be a TnB plane, like many in arena still think and like most of them used it in the arena.

It is not even a pure E fighter. Its weight and power loading are responsible for poor E income. Its wingloading should not help it in tight turns. Only its low drag and great relative density should help it in zooms to some point. The second the zoom starts to depend on engine power is the moment P 51 should reverse, for it starts to lose against a 109 or Spit. Its wing type, a great help at high speed, should be hinderance at low speeds.

P 51D is more a BnZ plane, IMO, not an E fighter like 109 is. It can TnB or E fight other BnZ planes like 190. Against Spits and 109s it should better have an E cushion, because it might get too hot very quick.

The biggest disadvantage of P 51 in AH was overconfidence of its pilots, in my opinion.

Sorry if next lines sound like a flame, but I have to say it:

I believe the pre0.46 P 51D has spoiled Pony pilots. Now when FMs are getting in right place, it has te be very disappointing for them.

Maybe a P 38 will offer AH P51D pilots what they enjoyed until now.

Flame on  


[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 01-17-2000).]

[dolomite]

I think we all know what is about to happen next...  

[Duckwing6]

For those folks who want to have an account on how an aircraft feels and who want to get somebody who deosn't have 50 years between the last time he flew it and now talk to MARK HANNA from The Old Flying Machine Co. he was flying D-FEHD the only flying 109-G10 in a mock dogfight recently and there is an excelent ariticle in the December Flight Journal magazine (heheh i'm NOT getting money for this!  www.flightjournal.com )

[Hristo]

Hey, Duckwing, can you...hmm...somehow...copyrig ht ;(

Anyway, what planes were in mock dogfight ? How did it go ?

At least few hints, please.

[Hangtime]

LOL Dolomite... he ain't gonna tease me off the perch that easy.  

Hristo, FWIW.. The p51's flyin about today are NOT combat equipped and ready AC. They have been extensivly reworked in airfame; are significantly lighter, carry nowhere as much fuel; have had the guns and ammo removed and power plants, avionics and control systems upgraded and modified to meet current standards. The fancy paint don't make it the plane of legend.  

The same will be true of that one last 109.

In additon, the reno racers are VERY advanced AC.. aside from the general apperance; todays mustangs on the race course are very diffrent than the machines those old men wrestled with 60 years ago...

Most signifiacantly todays restoration Mustangs are being flown far more gently than a steely-eyed LW kill hungry combat pilot would on his worst day after a hangover.   A mock dogfight with one would probably be well choreographed for the ooooohs and ahhhhs of the crowd. There will be no blood draining 5 g stress the airfame turns; no 'cashing the chips', no blood on the windscreen flyin with these antiques.

On the other side of the coin; I recall reading that the P51 was a mite twitchy with full fuel loadouts; the plane at max tankage was tailheavy; and would require very close attention from the pilot during the first phase of its flight. Normally; the aft fuselage tank was burned thru first; and the plane was comfortably within normal trim ranges by the time it reached altitude.. well before crossing the coast of France on its way to the killing grounds.

Nice try tho.  

Hang


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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8