Spit 5

[Angus]

From Issie:
"Dunno, but to me such tactics seem to be extremely dangerous, letting enemy fighters to bounce them from above. "

It's not a dunno. It was done, it happened, it worked.
Fact was, at that alt, neither the 109's nor the 190's could afford a serious co-number mix.

[Crumpp]

I disagree Angus.

JG 26 War Diaries is pretty unique in that it includes the Ground controller element as well as cross-referencing Axis and Allied records.

What that shows is that:

When the Luftwaffe had altitude they came out on top with little to no casualties.

When the Allies had Altitude the Allies came out on top with little to no casualties.

When the Altitude was even, both sides took casualties at a fairly even rate until mid-1944.  As the number of replacement pilots grow so does the number of Luftwaffe casualties. This is also born out by the book "Six Months to Oblivion".

Both Luftwaffe fighters required a seasoned hand to fight effectively.  The 190 was much easier to fly but IMO hard to fight.  Not due to performance but rather the plane had some nasty quirks.

Crumpp

[Crumpp]

http://tonywood.cjb.net/

You can check out the casualties for the whole war in JG26 by Gruppe.

I and II Gruppe flew FW-190's from their introduction into the Jagdwaffe to the end of the war.  

III Gruppe flew a mix of A/C.  109's, then 190's, back to 109's, then back to 190's.  Mietusch makes some rather enlighting remarks about the Bf-109's on 17 June 1944.

1.  The speed differential between 109's and 190's causes problems in mixed formations.  In such cases the 109's must be given the better tactical position - i.e. the greater altitude (they can fly faster to match the 190's speed and fight better)

2.  Bf-109 Operations at low level and low cloud are to be avoided.

3.  Bf-109's have the best chance of success in dives from above.

4.  The Mk-108 3 cm cannon has proved it's worth; the slight adverse effect on flight performance is bearable.

Crumpp

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Your Right Nashwan!

20 Oct '43

It was big rodeo that day with several bomber formations and lots of fighters in the air.

The 8th AF conducted the Duren raid.

II/JG26 mission was a fiasco.  There was a thick layer of rain clouds covering France that day.  II Gruppe got broken up climbing through the clouds and broke out of them as scattered individuals right underneath an escorting squadron of P47's.

The scattered pilots attempted to fight off the P47's and intercept the bombers.  

The FW-190A6's paid the price with 3 casualties from the P47's and 1 from the B17's.

III/JG26 flying a mix of Bf-109G3's, G4's, and G6's lost 2 pilots to B17's and 2 to P47's.

The Mk XII's are mentioned in the Diaries though:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The day as a whole was a minor disaster for the German Defenses.  Only nine B-17's were shot down, for the loss of nineteen German pilots killed or injured.  The losses of JG2 were about equal to JG26's.  The Richthofen fighters approach was broken up completely by the Spitfire Mk XII's of the Hawkinge Wing, which shot down 10 Messerschmitt's and FW-190's without loss.
JG 26 lost six pilots killed, and two injured. And nine of it's aircraft wrecked.  All of the casualties of the Schlatager Geschwader were 1943 replacements, boding ill for the future; it is certain none of the five pilots shot down by P47's had the skill or experience Peter Crump needed to survive after being bounced at 34,000 feet.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JG26 claimed 5 Spitfires (not Mk XII), 2 P47's, and 4 B17's.

Looks to me like the Spitfire Mk XII's were at worst co-alt and probably above as the main Luftwaffe Objective was the bombers.

Crumpp

Hmmm, interesting info.  I imagine the 10th is that one that wasn't initially claimed because the pilot didn't fire at him but he augered in.

The Spits were at 8K and according to combat reports the 109s etc came out of the sun from 13K.  The Spits turned to port climbing while the E/A opened fire from extreme range.  The E/A dove away and the Spits gave chase.

Claims were by:
WingCo Ray Harries-2
F/O Barney Newman RAAF(41) -1
F/O Ron Collis (41)-1
F/O Peter Cowell (41)-1
S/L Norm Kynaston(91)-1
F/O Ray Nash (91) -1
F/L Chris Doll (91)-1
F/S Red Blumer RAAF -1
And the one auger kill by a B Flight pilot of 41 Squadron.  Jackie Fisher I believe but the signature is hard to make out on  the combat report.

Interestingly enough, back in the mid 80s I corresponded with Barney Newman's family, Ron Collis, Ray Nash, Chris Doll and Peter Cowell, and at the 41 reunion in 85 stayed at Peter Cowell's home and was given the grand tour of their old airfields by Peter.

Helluva guy.

While the Spit XIIs had no losses, they did not return unscathed as a number of them were damaged, and Ron Collis 'broke the back of his Spit XII pulling out of a dive in the combat where he made the claim.  His radio broke free and was bouncing around inside the fuselage.  MB850 was in the shop for a while before being put back in service with 41

Dan/Slack

BTW Crumpp, I've always assumed the name came from Peter Crump of JG26 and 190s

Naturally Slack comes from Tom Slack of 41 Squadron and Spit XIIs

[gripen]

Apparentlly Crumpp can't tell how did he reach that 2D Clo value 0,1296 which, according to him, is based to my calculated 3D Cl value 1,451 for the Fw 190 (AR 6,02) at 300km/h and 3 g load. The formula he claims to have been used is:

Cl = Clo / (1 + Clo /[pi * AR])

There is no way we can reach Crumpp's Cl value with this formula.

This leaves two possibilities:

1. Crumpp can't calculate.

2. Crumpp has made up his value.

gripen

[Crumpp]

BTW Crumpp, I've always assumed the name came from Peter Crump of JG26 and 190s

LOL Yeah I liked his attitude, the fact he never left his wingman, and he just manage to have a knack for the doing the right thing.


Interesting read on the Spit XII's.  Your sure about the date on that, 20 October 1943 and not 17 November 1943?

Thanks for sharing it Guppy!

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Crumpp
LOL Yeah I liked his attitude, the fact he never left his wingman, and he just manage to have a knack for the doing the right thing.


Interesting read on the Spit XII's.  Your sure about the date on that, 20 October 1943 and not 17 November 1943?

Thanks for sharing it Guppy!

IT was definately October 20, 1943.  The Spit XIIs didn't score much after that. There was a single kill in November and a couple in January 44.  Nothing after that until the V-1s of the Summer of 44.  They finished out with 2 190s claimed by 41 on September 3, 1944 over Holland.

Image is of the Tangmere Spit XII Wing, taken on October 30, 1943 shortly after their most successful day.

Ray Harries is center with the CO of 41 on his right, Bernard Ingham and the CO of 91 on his left, Norman Kynaston.  I won't bore ya with the names of the others

Dan/Slack

[Crumpp]

http://tonywood.cjb.net/

Don't know what is up with this link.  Hit the JG26 Site then click on the Combat claims and losses graph.  There you can see the claims and casualties broken down by Gruppe.

I hope they bring the Spit XII to AH, Guppy35.


Crumpp

[Angus]

20th october is the date from "Aces high".
Harries had some other nice sporting days as well.
18th of July he bagged 3 109's. 25 th of may he bagged 2 190's.
In dec 1944 he damaged a 262 while flying in a Spit IX as well.

I have quite some info about Mustangs of 65th sqn RAF vs 190's.
On the 24th of June 1944 for instance, several 190's were bagged by the squadron with little or no losses.
Wigco Johnstone got 2, and my fellow countryman Tony Jonsson got 2 as well. Both his victims hit the silk and survived, while at least 1 of the Wingco's victims was killed (I saw the guncam film)
Any Idea where I can find info about LW losses that day?

I'll bring some more stuff about it later.

Oh, wasn't Spit XII very similarly performing as the XIV?

I'd say we should get Spit VIII to AH! Imagine the whines

[Crumpp]

From JG 26 War Diaries:

24 June 1944.

The early mission of the first Gruppe was another uncontrolled jabojagd to the beachhead.  Soon after takeoff, Lt. Xaver Ellenrieder's Schwarm sighted a squadron of approaching P47's and shadowed them west of Paris before attacking.  Ellenrieder downed a 362nd Fighter Group Thunderbolt in the successful bounce.

The second and Third Gruppen and III/JG54 were scrambled at 0700 and directed toward a large Allied force headed for Paris.  The formations collided between Evreux and Dreux.  The Allied aircraft were 2nd TAF Mustangs from Nos. 19 and 65 Squadrons.  Four No. 65 Squadron aircraft went down in the subsequent dogfights, claimed by Oblt. Werner Stoll, Lt Hofmann, and six Greenheart pilots.  Hptm. Matoni who was once again leading most Second Gruppe missions, claimed a Spitfire, but lacked a witness.  Uffz. Hermann Ayerle of the 12th Staffel was shot down, and was fired at in his parachute.  He was not hit, but his parachute was, and Ayerle was injured in a hard landing after a swift descent.  A second third Gruppe Messerschmitt was shot down, possibly in this combat; it's pilot was uninjured.  Oblt Werner Stoll was shot down by "three Thunderbolts", according to his loss report, and bailed out with burns.  No P47 claimed an FW-190 today, and Stoll was probably another victim of the RAF Mustang pilots, who claimed a total of 7-0-1 FW-190's and one Bf109.  III/JG54 losses on this mission are unknown.

JG 26 lost 2 pilots WIA - 1 FW-190A8 and 1 Bf-109G6.
RAF claimed 8 A/C destroyed.  LW claimed 7 A/C destroyed.

Side note:  Pips Priller removed III/JG 54 from operational status.  They had arrived from the Eastern Front.  After training exercise's Priller felt they were not up to Western Front Combat standards. It is entirely possible the other A/C came from III/JG54.

Crumpp

[Crumpp]

Let me add some stats too for the Normandy Beachhead Air Battles:

Odds in the Air rose as high as 40 to 1 in the Allies favour.

For every pre - 1943 trained pilot lost over Normandy the Luftwaffe by Osprey books estimation - 30-40 post - 1943 trained pilots.

1 to 30-40 ratio between the "old hares" and the "nachtwuchs".

Opsrey Avaition Elite #6 - Jagdgeschwader 54 "Grunherz" mentions no entry on that date.  III/JG54 was flying FW-190A8's.

Crumpp

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Angus
20th october is the date from "Aces high".
Harries had some other nice sporting days as well.
18th of July he bagged 3 109's. 25 th of may he bagged 2 190's.
In dec 1944 he damaged a 262 while flying in a Spit IX as well.

I have quite some info about Mustangs of 65th sqn RAF vs 190's.
On the 24th of June 1944 for instance, several 190's were bagged by the squadron with little or no losses.
Wigco Johnstone got 2, and my fellow countryman Tony Jonsson got 2 as well. Both his victims hit the silk and survived, while at least 1 of the Wingco's victims was killed (I saw the guncam film)
Any Idea where I can find info about LW losses that day?

I'll bring some more stuff about it later.

Oh, wasn't Spit XII very similarly performing as the XIV?

I'd say we should get Spit VIII to AH! Imagine the whines

Spit XII essentially was a response to the low level FW190s that were doing hit and run raids on the south coast of England.  The May 25, 1943 raid where Harries and 91 Squadron claimed a number of 190s was an interception of one of those raids.

41 claimed a 190 on June, 6, 1943 intercepting another of those raids.

The July 18, 1943 mission was a sweep where Harries claimed 2 109s downed and one damaged.  It was also the day Tom Slack was shot down, only to walk back through Spain.

Spit XII to the Spit XIV was essentially like the Spit V to the IX.  Single stage supercharger vs two stage etc.

Fast and able to turn with the 190s and 109s down low

Dan/Slack

[Angus]

The guncam film I saw was a low 6 o clock attack on a 190, the 190 crashing into the ground. That was wingco Johnston.
He claims a 190 SE of Dreux.

I was looking for another guncam film when I came across this, that was FO Jonsson filming his 1st victim after he landed on the ground and was rolling up his chute. This film sadly exists no more.
Jonsson's 1st victim was a tough one. That was treetop maneuvers, eventually the German zoomed and bailed out as he was stalling. He came down allright. This was somewhere in the >Dreux/Evreux area.
The second one was further north, since Jonsson was low on fuel and was RTB. He came across 2 190's, and fired at them from a 90 degrees angle!!! He did not hit anything as far as he knew, but the second pilot apparently panicked and immediately bailed out!



What I had dug up so far was this (Germans shot down):
Muders
Horthen, Rudolf
Wienrich, Rudolf

from JG 26:
Ayerle, Hermann. He was shot down by a P51. I wonder if he was the one shot by Jonsson, He was in the P51's sights when he bailed. However Jonsson was no chute-killer (He had a very hot opinion on those matters!)
He also was reported as WIA (from the source I had, anyone shot down is a WIA) on the 17th of July and on the 25th of September.
Any more info on that guy?

Anything welcome.

[Crumpp]

However Jonsson was no chute-killer (He had a very hot opinion on those matters!)

May not have been him.

From the accounts each German had more than one Allied fighter attacking them.  

For the post-1943 pilots it is no wonder they bailed.  They recieved no training whatsoever in air to air combat only in bomber interception. Their Aircraft were not gentle and forgiving either.  So hard manuvering was beyond many of their abilities.

Statistically most of them died before the completion of their sixth mission.  If they survived the sixth their chances went up astronomically.

Mietusch comments on how hard it was to control his unit.  He had faith in all of his pilots "except the new ones".

The nachtwuchs would get into combat and drown out the radio with their screams.

He also was reported as WIA (from the source I had, anyone shot down is a WIA) on the 17th of July and on the 25th of September.

Ayerle, Hermann.  17 July '44  He just got back from the Hospital.  He got shot down again with injuries.  They got into a "large battle" with allied fighters near Caen.  Mietusch claimed 1 spitfire in his 109G6, but III Gruppe lost 4 109's.  Only 190 lost that day was a FW-190A8 whose engine quit on a transfer flight.  III Gruppe lost a total of 7 109's that day.

He was shot down again on 27 Sept. '44 with injuries by a Spitfire again in a 109G6.

I'll do some checking on the other names.

Crumpp

[Angus]

WOW
You have some nice archive Crumpp.
BTW, Jonsson's engagements were 1vs1 and then 1vs2
No other planes around.
Both planes are listed in the Dreux area, however, he was homebound on cruise when he ran into the second engagement.
In any case, these were "solo" engagements from his side.

I could try to approach his logs, however that would be quite a task. I shall, none the less, try to do so in the future.