Spit 5

[Crumpp]

In any case, these were "solo" engagements from his side.

Thank you Angus.  I have quite a bit of time on my hands in my job so I spend it reading.  Big History buff!

I am sure from his point of view they were Solo Engagements.  Pilots called it the "empty" sky syndrome.  One second the sky would be full of planes and the next you were alone.  Eric Hartmann completed 13 missions before he spotted his first enemy aircraft.  He made contact on the previous 12 sorties but never saw the enemy except for a split second as they flew by him.  

We call it "tunnel vision" in the infantry.  It is just one of those things that occur in combat.  It takes absolutely nothing away from Jonsson's bravery, intelligence, and it does not question his integrity or ability as a combat pilot.

Mietusch, III Gruppenkommanduer JG26 and 75 victory Experten, described it as:

"When the situation becomes critical, there is usually only one correct reaction out of a hundred possibilities.  Then you fight as though in a trance.  The lightning swiftness of the necessary reactions does not permit calm deliberation.  The situation requires immediate action.  You grasp only fragments of the swirling, lightning-swift images.  Later you can sometimes remember one thing or another; these are painful recollections if the situation was not grasped properly, and happier if you did the one and only correct thing."

There were 3 Luftwaffe Gruppen and 2 Allied Squadrons that collided in the sky over Dreux in that engagement. The second engagement I can't comment on, but the first one I would say in all likelyhood, Jonsson was not as alone as he thought.

Have you checked out the Tactical trials of the FW-190A?

Crumpp

[Angus]

I'll send you a more detailed account of Jonsson's day, - i.e. THAT day..
BTW, He was no newbie at the time, Already on his second tour of duty with some 250 combat hours behind him.
He already had departed from his wingman on the first engagement. Alone, RTB, low on fuel in the second.
190's as well as 109's were often operating in big gaggles at the time. I remember an account where he got involved in a 12 vs 50 fight, where after the scruffle, the losses were roughly the same.
The Mustangs would absolutely engage the 190's uphill, BTW.

[Crumpp]

Angus M8,

The entire JG 26 only had 47 serviceable A/C in March of '44.

On 30 June of '44 they had 35 serviceable A/C of all types.

That stays about average.  50 Aircraft in the air at once is an entire Fighter Wing.

Crumpp

[Crumpp]

I would love to see the accounts Angus.  Thanks for the offer!

Crumpp

[Crumpp]

After reviewing all the tactical trials and performance data.

The Mustangs would absolutely engage the 190's uphill, BTW.

There is no doubt that the Mustang was a much rougher customer for the 190 to deal with than the Spitfire until the advent of the Spitfire Mk XIV.

Crumpp

[Angus]

Well, it could do anything the 190 could, mostly better.
The Spitty in that time would typically be IX or XIV, boosted to the limit.
Not much an easier foe than the P51.....

Jonsson was actually very disappointed getting a P51 instead of a Spit IX............

[Crumpp]

Yeah the Spit XIV gained both weight and horsepower.  It dominated the FW-190A.

The Spitfire IX Merlin 66 (+25) would be about the same fight as the FW-190A3 vs Merlin 61.  Equal but niether dominating the other.

Crumpp

[Angus]

Regarding Speed climb and zoom, you mean?
After all, the 190 couldn't turn with any (!?) of the allied fighters, the sole possibility being the Ta152 with the heaviest allied planes.

[VO101_Isegrim]

Originally posted by Angus
Regarding Speed climb and zoom, you mean?
After all, the 190 couldn't turn with any (!?) of the allied fighters, the sole possibility being the Ta152 with the heaviest allied planes.

I think this is a bit too much to state. The 190 wasn`t a good turner, but from the tests, it could certainly turn with the P-51, Tyhpoon/Tempest, and outturn the P-47 and P-38.
Of course, quite worser than the nimble ones, Spits, 109s, Yaks, Laggs...

Leave out very high speed, combat flaps whatever special condition, I mean generally the 190 had a turn advantage over them.

[Angus]

Read the comparison tests with the american fighters Issy and say again.
How much was it for the Hellcat to reverse the situation? 3 turns?
Even the F4u easily outturned the 190. A P51 turns with the F4U.
The only 190's I've seen reported as turning with the Tempest were Ta152's. That would be understandable because of their great span.
A 190 outturning the P38? NO WAY.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
I think this is a bit too much to state. The 190 wasn`t a good turner, but from the tests, it could certainly turn with the P-51, Tyhpoon/Tempest, and outturn the P-47 and P-38.

Er, the P-51 and P-38 out turn the Spitfire.

[VO101_Isegrim]

Originally posted by Angus
Read the comparison tests with the american fighters Issy and say again.
How much was it for the Hellcat to reverse the situation? 3 turns?

Hellcat was a very good turner with very low wingloading, so what?

Even the F4u easily outturned the 190. A P51 turns with the F4U.

Wrong.
P-51C vs. F-4U trials : "The F4U is everywhere superior in manouveribility and response."

The only 190's I've seen reported as turning with the Tempest were Ta152's. That would be understandable because of their great span.

"Turning Circles
There is very little difference in turning circles between the two aircraft. If anything a very slight advantage lies with the Tempest. "

A 190 outturning the P38? NO WAY.

Yet it happened : "The manouverbility of the FW 190 is superior to the P-38F, part. in the rolling plane. Altough at high speed the FW 190 is superior in turning circles, it can be outturned if the P-38F reduces it`s speed to about 140 mph at which it can carry out a very tight turn the FW 190 cannot follow."

Hmm. A fighter at 140 mph. That`s barely over 200 km/h, near the landing speed of most planes. Yeah, you are right, it could outturn it unless speed is higher than 140mph.

[VO101_Isegrim]

"Er, the P-51 and P-38 out turn the Spitfire."

Nashwan will be mad, he isn`t in a good mood or stance anyway around now for some reason.  

[Angus]

Issie, you're nuts. Did I maybe say that before?
A P51 and a F4U are very close in the turning business. Depends on model. You quote an unknown F4U vs a P51C. I'd like to see that. With or without a notch of flaps?
What I've seen so far (as well as tried in AH) the F4U and the P51 have a rather similar turning capability, while the 190 is VASTLY INFERIOR to the F4U.
About a P38 being a bad turner, I'm clueless. This is something I never heard before, so in AH it must be incredibly wrongly modelled, at least according to you.
So, for all our sake, as well as for HTC, please provide some complete info on that .

[Crumpp]

Read the comparison tests with the american fighters Issy and say again.

Yes,
In those test's the FW-190 turn EXTREMELY badly.  In fact there are only TWO tests' that mention aileron problems when turning.  The USAAF tactical trails with an FW-190A5/U4 and the Luftwaffe Tactical trials of an FW-190A2 vs. Bf-109F4.  

A P51 does turn with an F4U.  An FW-190A turns with a P51B with the P51B having a "slight" advantage. Certainly not outturning it in a couple of turns. Yet the F4U and the Hellcat in these tactical trials easily outturned the FW-190.

In the FW-190A2 vs. Bf-109F4 tactical trials, it is specifically mentioned that the ailerons must be properly adjusted and the grip proof tips properly positioned.  This has an adverse effect on low speed handling and causes premature stalling in the turns.

Check out the aileron comments on this website:

http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/fw190.htm

Now cross-reference that with the FW-190A5 condition on the USAAF tactical trials.  Fairly extensive repairs were done to this A/C.  It was a crashed and recovered A/C.  I think the ailerons were out of adjustment.  

Again, these two trials are the only mention of a problem with stalling in the turns.

Crumpp