More Gun control???

[Nashwan]

you guys crack me up... when I show that 1000 homicides a year in england is the same per capita homicide rate as all the white homicide rate in the U.S... that is total... guns or no guns

You haven't Lazs.

Whites committed almost half the murders in the US. There were 16000 murders in the US. That means at least 7,000 murders by whites.

The white population of the US is 225,600,000

That works out at a white murder rate of 3.1 per 100,000

The number for England and Wales is 853 murders, a rate of 1.7 per 100,000.

That's a rate for everybody in the UK, and the US rate, by removing blacks who tend to be poorer, is far more biased to the middle class.

You white's only, adjusted to the middle class rate is still nearly twice our overall rate.

 

ou claim that it is because the minorities are not seperated from your rate... you don't even have a significant minority rate... if you did the problem would skyrocket even more...

I think the last census found around 8% of the population of England and Wales was what you'd describe a non-white.

[lazs2]

8% is a pitance... not enough to work up their courage and have a good riot.

There are plenty of poor whites... what is it about the poor that makes you think they are such criminals?  

The FBI stats show that of the 14,000 homicides about 5,000 could be attributed to whites.   that is more like a third than a half.  even if a substantial portion of the unsolved homicides were attributed to whites... you would still be talking a difference of allmost nothing per capita between your country and ours.   my guess would be that more of the right people die in our country and more of the wrong ones in yours too.

If a holdup pair is in a gunfight and one of the holdup men is killed... the other is charged with murder.

Why do you missrepresent the figures in every case?  you seem to have an agenda ...  Why would you have an agenda?  What possible reason would you have to be so "concerned" about gun control in the U.S.?   Is it because the U.S. points out that gun control just increases crime and you don't want that message to be heard?

lazs

[Curval]

Shameless Rip&Paste from another thread...but it is rather interesting.

Assassinations and Attempts in U.S. Since 1865
Lincoln, Abraham (president of U.S.): Shot April 14, 1865, in Washington, DC, by John Wilkes Booth; died April 15.

Seward, William H. (secretary of state): Escaped assassination (though injured) April 14, 1865, in Washington, DC, by Lewis Powell (or Paine), accomplice of John Wilkes Booth.

Garfield, James A. (president of U.S.): Shot July 2, 1881, in Washington, DC, by Charles J. Guiteau; died Sept. 19.

McKinley, William (president of U.S.): Shot Sept. 6, 1901, in Buffalo by Leon Czolgosz; died Sept. 14.

Roosevelt, Theodore (ex-president of U.S.): Escaped assassination (though shot) Oct. 14, 1912, in Milwaukee while campaigning for president.

Cermak, Anton J. (mayor of Chicago): Shot Feb. 15, 1933, in Miami by Giuseppe Zangara, who attempted to assassinate Franklin D. Roosevelt; Cermak died March 6.

Roosevelt, Franklin D. (president-elect of U.S.): Escaped assassination unhurt Feb. 15, 1933, in Miami.

Long, Huey P. (U.S. senator from Louisiana): Shot Sept. 8, 1935, in Baton Rouge by Dr. Carl A. Weiss; died Sept. 10.

Truman, Harry S. (president of U.S.): Escaped assassination unhurt Nov. 1, 1950, in Washington, DC, as 2 Puerto Rican nationalists attempted to shoot their way into Blair House.

Kennedy, John F. (president of U.S.): Shot Nov. 22, 1963, in Dallas, Tex., allegedly by Lee Harvey Oswald; died same day. Injured was Gov. John B. Connally of Texas. Oswald was shot and killed two days later by Jack Ruby.

Malcolm X, also known as El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (black activist): Shot and killed in a New York City auditorium, Feb. 21, 1965; his killer(s) were never positively identified.

King, Martin Luther, Jr. (civil rights leader): Shot April 4, 1968, in Memphis by James Earl Ray; died same day.

Kennedy, Robert F. (U.S. senator from New York): Shot June 5, 1968, in Los Angeles by Sirhan Bishara Sirhan; died June 6.

Wallace, George C. (governor of Alabama): Shot and critically wounded in assassination attempt May 15, 1972, at Laurel, Md., by Arthur Herman Bremer. Wallace paralyzed from waist down.

Ford, Gerald R. (president of U.S.): Escaped assassination attempt Sept. 5, 1975, in Sacramento, Calif., by Lynette Alice (Squeaky) Fromme, who pointed but did not fire .45-caliber pistol. Escaped assassination attempt in San Francisco, Calif., Sept. 22, 1975, by Sara Jane Moore, who fired one shot from a .38-caliber pistol that was deflected.

Jordan, Vernon E., Jr. (civil rights leader): Shot and critically wounded in assassination attempt May 29, 1980, in Fort Wayne, Ind.

Reagan, Ronald (president of U.S.): Shot in left lung in Washington by John W. Hinckley, Jr., on March 30, 1981; three others also wounded.

Lots of guys pointing there guns at right minded white guys here.

[Nashwan]

There are plenty of poor whites... what is it about the poor that makes you think they are such criminals?

History.

The town I live in has a fairly low ethnic minority population. Most of the crime comes from certain poor white neighbourhoods.

At one time, we had the worst car crime rate in Europe. It happened invariably in the poorer area, not the middle class neighbourhoods.

The FBI stats show that of the 14,000 homicides about 5,000 could be attributed to whites.

And 6,000 were not attributed to anyone, so it must have been blakcs, right? Or maybe, because they don't know who did it, it didn't happen at all.

Cool, can we ignore the murders in England and Wales where the suspect wasn't known?

In fact, as they don't provide a racial breakdown in the British statistics, can I do what you're doing and assume all the unkown race perpetrators were black? That would give Britain a 0 white murder rate.

even if a substantial portion of the unsolved homicides were attributed to whites... you would still be talking a difference of allmost nothing per capita between your country and ours.

No, you'd be talking about a 1.7 all race murder rate for Britain, a 3.1 white murder rate for the US.

Why do you missrepresent the figures in every case?

I'm not, Lazs, you are.

You can't simply say because the race of the murder is unkown, they must have been black.

As I said, the race of the suspects isn't known for the British figures at all, it would be equally silly to assume they're all black.

Of the known murders in the US, it's an almost 50:50 split between blacks and whites.  You want to assign all the unkown figures to blacks as well.

I want to split the unkown figures along the same lines the known figures are.

Why would you have an agenda? What possible reason would you have to be so "concerned" about gun control in the U.S.?

None at all. I just like to but in when I see someone distorting the facts.

I've never started a gun thread, on this or any board.

[lazs2]

nashwan... it is you who are distorting fact...  you started the whole distortion by representing all homicides and all white homicides as gun homicides.  

lets be realistic here nashwan... most of the unsolved murders are in ghetto areas.   the police, right or wrong, don't put as much time into solving those cases and... the people there are much less inclined to talk to the poilice in any case..

it would be silly to figure that half those murders were by whites who can barely show their faces in those neighborhoods.

given that... I would say that no more than a third of the unsolved murders were by whites... that would make the per capita rate about the same or lower than in england... even with a worse case scenario as you point out you are only talking 1 more murder per hundred thousand...

hardly worth the wall-0-words you spent on it... certainly not worth the loss of freedom and increase in crime not having guns would cause...

sooo... what is your agenda if it is not as I have stated?   what interest do you have in our gun control or lack thereof?

curval... do you think that presidential assainations or attempts would be thwarted if it were minutely more difficult fot the assasins to get their firearms?

lazs

[Curval]

Yes.

[demaw1]

Nashwan .....Beetle....Pei.....


 I have to assume you all are from across the pond. It just  dawned on me what the problem is.. we have been argueing guns, which doesnt really matter, cause you cant do anything about it.

  The real reason is simple, we as Americans have rights, not privileges..If you break 1 right in the constitution or bill of rights the rest will fall. The huge majority of Americans used to believe that, and that made us powerfull, and the gov. was afraid of us.Now a small majority do, and that is a problem when it comes to overthrowing the gov if need be.

 It is a right and we will fight for it.

 Europe on the other hand sees almost everything as a privilege.You said it your self. owning guns was a privilege,therefore europe has never really had a stake in true, fought and died for rights. You have never understood us and never will.

 So far as Americans overthrowing the gov if needed, none of you have come close to proving it couldnt be done. That is because it isnt ingrained in you, it is not part of your heritage. Subjects, yes I was refurring to monarchs and know it has been a while since those days. But you are still subjects because almost everything is a privilege and little are rights.

   Do you really think that all of the military would stay on the side of a dictator?  How much damage do you think 100,000,000 people under arms would do ? Remember or motto is give me liberty or give me death,not , give me life no matter the cost, which europe is so endeard to. What were the odds we could beat england? So it is really a moot point.

 I cant believe no one has figured out where the 33000 came from lol.

[Pei]

Originally posted by Nashwan
There's something wrong there. The population of Scotland is around 5,050,000. 127 murders is 25 per million.

I was just quoting the Scottish Office figures (check out their website). Note that they quote their figures for the calendar year unlike the Home Office.

Originally posted by Nashwan

I believe the Chinese immigrants was in 2001/02.
 

According to the Home Office the 58 chinese deaths were in the total for 02/03: I don't know if this was the financial year or some other arbitrary accounting year but they had specific note saying the Chinese deaths and the Shipman deaths were included in that figure.


The 33K figure (if correct) probably inlcudes all death by misadventure and accident as well. I imagine like the US the highest contributor will be road deaths.

[Pei]

Originally posted by demaw1
Nashwan .....Beetle....Pei.....


 I have to assume you all are from across the pond. It just  dawned on me what the problem is.. we have been argueing guns, which doesnt really matter, cause you cant do anything about it.

  The real reason is simple, we as Americans have rights, not privileges..If you break 1 right in the constitution or bill of rights the rest will fall. The huge majority of Americans used to believe that, and that made us powerfull, and the gov. was afraid of us.Now a small majority do, and that is a problem when it comes to overthrowing the gov if need be.

 It is a right and we will fight for it.

 Europe on the other hand sees almost everything as a privilege.You said it your self. owning guns was a privilege,therefore europe has never really had a stake in true, fought and died for rights. You have never understood us and never will.

 So far as Americans overthrowing the gov if needed, none of you have come close to proving it couldnt be done. That is because it isnt ingrained in you, it is not part of your heritage. Subjects, yes I was refurring to monarchs and know it has been a while since those days. But you are still subjects because almost everything is a privilege and little are rights.

   Do you really think that all of the military would stay on the side of a dictator?  How much damage do you think 100,000,000 people under arms would do ? Remember or motto is give me liberty or give me death,not , give me life no matter the cost, which europe is so endeard to. What were the odds we could beat england? So it is really a moot point.

 I cant believe no one has figured out where the 33000 came from lol.

I would have disagree: I have plenty of rights. I can am free to assemble with my fellow citizens, say what  I like, sleep with who I like etc. You seem to think we all still live in fuedal societies grabbing our forelocks whenever our "betters" go past. Whatever Hollywood might portray that is not the case. In fact the only significant difference between my country and yours in terms of rights is that of arms.

The Right to Bear Arms was useful back in 18th century for the US situation, the equivalent situation did not occur in the UK and so the right was never seen as necessary. In modern terms I see that right as an anachronism. We both live stable democratic societies.

I see know reason why a responsible citizen shold not own a gun, just like I see no reason why a responsible citizen may own a vehicle. Both may be abused in such a way as to break the law and endanger life and so I beleive certain restrictions should be met.  Ultimately this is what happnes in both my country and yours: you have to register and someone does a background check. So the difference in practical terms is one of semantics mostly, though you are allowed to own certain categroies of guns that are banned in my own country (some of these I agree with and some I don't).

[Nashwan]

I was just quoting the Scottish Office figures (check out their website). Note that they quote their figures for the calendar year unlike the Home Office.

They're Scottish, they're too drunk to get the figures straight

Seriously, on another part of their site they give what looks like the correct figure:

In 2002, there were 127 victims of the 125 homicide cases recorded by the police, 11 more victims than in 2001 and the highest annual total since 1996. This represented a rate of 25 victims per million population.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/stats/bulletins/00290-02.asp

According to the Home Office the 58 chinese deaths were in the total for 02/03: I don't know if this was the financial year or some other arbitrary accounting year but they had specific note saying the Chinese deaths and the Shipman deaths were included in that figure.

Could be, I have difficulty keeping tack of years when they aren't a calender year, ie 02/03 - 03/04 etc.

Shipman also had two batches of deaths recorded, the first group he was accused of, plus a few more, then a load by the inquiry into his actions.

I see know reason why a responsible citizen shold not own a gun, just like I see no reason why a responsible citizen may own a vehicle. Both may be abused in such a way as to break the law and endanger life and so I beleive certain restrictions should be met. Ultimately this is what happnes in both my country and yours: you have to register and someone does a background check

That's what puzzles me as well. Americans are willing to accept registration of cars, licences to operate them in public etc, yet not the same for guns.

nashwan... it is you who are distorting fact... you started the whole distortion by representing all homicides and all white homicides as gun homicides.

I didn't at all. I don't like comparing just gun homicides, because people invariably claim "they are just killed with something else".

lets be realistic here nashwan... most of the unsolved murders are in ghetto areas. the police, right or wrong, don't put as much time into solving those cases and... the people there are much less inclined to talk to the poilice in any case..

And as I told you before, they aren't just unsolved murders. There are thousands of murders where the FBI just aren't given that level of information.

Which police department do you think gives better figures to the FBI, a major metropolitan police force, which likely has a high black opulation, or hicksville Kentucky, where one of the farmers shot his wife/sister/cousin (I only mean 1 murder, of course)

given that... I would say that no more than a third of the unsolved murders were by whites... that would make the per capita rate about the same or lower than in england.

No, Lazs, the FBI identifies almost 5,500 murder suspects as white.

If just that 5,500 were white, and all the unknowns and murders with no info at all provided were by blacks, just that 5,500 figure equates to 2.4 per 100,000, which is still well above Britain's all race 1.7.

And that's by assuming every single one of the 5,000 or so unknown murders was black.

sooo... what is your agenda if it is not as I have stated? what interest do you have in our gun control or lack thereof?

None what so ever. Why do you keep posting about the crime rate in Britain?

curval... do you think that presidential assainations or attempts would be thwarted if it were minutely more difficult fot the assasins to get their firearms?

Obviosuly not. All the black men who carried out those assasinations would have found some way.

[cpxxx]

Originally posted by demaw1

Europe on the other hand sees almost everything as a privilege.You said it your self. owning guns was a privilege,therefore europe has never really had a stake in true, fought and died for rights. You have never understood us and never will.

I kinda resent that comment as an Irishman. We have fought and died for our rights and freedom, the right to self determination etc against Beetle and Nashwans predecessors.  Inspired to some extent by America. We are not subjects. We always had an independant streak and were a constant pain in the British government's side.  The French too it must be said overthrew their monarch.
 But otherwise the sentiments are true. It was an American  who summed up the difference for me.

 In America you can do something unless someone says you can't. In Europe you can't do anything unless someone says you can.

I think that sums it up.

I think this argument can never be resolved. There is merit on both sides. Too little gun control is bad. Too much is bad. Guns are bad when the wrong people have them and they are misused.

[demaw1]

Cpxxx....Ireland you just cant win....


  I totally for got about Ireland, I was talking about Britian,France,Germany,Russia etc. I am sorry to say I dont know anything about Irelands goverment. So I just can win, Someone a while back got mad because I didnt captilize his country,heck I dont know how I type from 1 min. to next. lol.

[cpxxx]

Ah don't worry about it I was only half serious. We're so little everyone forgets about us all the time. Only about the size of the state of Maine.  But we were only the second country to get independance from Britain. You were first.

[lasersailor184]

Sorry for referring back to this, but 99/100 criminals aren't rich.  They are lucky to afford a knife.  So they really wouldn't have the choice of 9mm or m16.

[Pei]

Originally posted by demaw1
Cpxxx....Ireland you just cant win....


  I totally for got about Ireland, I was talking about Britian,France,Germany,Russia etc. I am sorry to say I dont know anything about Irelands goverment. So I just can win, Someone a while back got mad because I didnt captilize his country,heck I dont know how I type from 1 min. to next. lol.

All these countries named have had major revolutions against authoritarian rule. Ultimately no country has slid into democracy without struggle, even if it has taken decades. In that respect neither the US nor Ireland are unique.