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Author Topic: More Gun control???  (Read 7194 times)

Offline Toad

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More Gun control???
« Reply #210 on: August 18, 2004, 10:57:09 AM »
OK, maybe it's like trying to explain the need for a fly rod to a guy that comes from a culture in the mid-Sahara. They just don't grasp the concept of sport fishing.
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Offline Toad

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More Gun control???
« Reply #211 on: August 18, 2004, 11:01:14 AM »
I suspect what Laz is driving at is that should you loyal Bermudan subjects ever decide your government has gone too far you'll have to overthrow them using your nine irons.

We, otoh, will have something with a bit more range and "punch" available thanks to the foresight of our Founders.

And before someone throws in the inevitable "deer rifles against F-16's", I'd point out that our "citizen soldier" ethic makes it much more likely that the guys with the F-16's will stand with those who believe the Founders were correct than with a corrupted government that no longer honors the Constitution the troops are sworn to defend. There's that other difference...... our troops swear to defend the Constitution, an idea really, rather than a King or any other person.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Curval

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More Gun control???
« Reply #212 on: August 18, 2004, 11:04:21 AM »
That anology doesn't fit with me.

I have pointed out that we have had a culture which included guns.

My island has NEVER been invaded or subjugated.

Our government made a consious decision to try and eradicate guns from this island.  I agree with that decision.
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Offline wrag

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« Reply #213 on: August 18, 2004, 11:15:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
That anology doesn't fit with me.

I have pointed out that we have had a culture which included guns.

My island has NEVER been invaded or subjugated.

Our government made a consious decision to try and eradicate guns from this island.  I agree with that decision.


Really????  

HMMMMMMMMMM...........  SOOOOOO....

Hastings never happened?  The Vikings/Norse never showed up?  Rome didn't arrive there either????  The Norman's never fought the Saxon's?

Oops Bermuda :)

So whatever happened to the original inhabitants of that island?  The one's that were there pre Columbus?

Ugh my speeling is reelly bad today.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2004, 11:18:07 AM by wrag »
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Offline Curval

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More Gun control???
« Reply #214 on: August 18, 2004, 11:19:19 AM »
Wrag, I don't live in England.  There were some wild hogs and some birds here before the British.  No people.  A Portugese sailor dropped by to give a name to what were known as The Devil's Isles (Juan de Bermudez) but he didn't stick around.

Interesting examples though....and all prior to the advent of guns.

If my memory is correct England hasn't been invaded since 1066.  Many have tried though...notably France, Spain and Germany.  But, despite being subjects of rulers that forbade them the right to bear arms they sure managed to use 'em effectively to protect their country.

Again....no-one from Europe or Bermuda is trying to take your guns away.  Americans are doing that.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #215 on: August 18, 2004, 11:23:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval

Our government made a consious decision to try and eradicate guns from this island.  I agree with that decision.


Well, YAH.

You guys don't have anything to hunt and you're so regulated that just going out plinking is basically impossible. Your "gun club rules" are most likely so anal that it isn't worth the effort to join.

So, again, I can easily understand why you guys think you don't need guns. Just like you wouldn't need a fly rod in the desert.

In that way, you're just like the Euros. And unlike us.
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Offline Curval

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« Reply #216 on: August 18, 2004, 11:25:42 AM »
Hmmm, your arguments have taken a turn for the "lazs".

Us and them?  I thought we had reached agreement that we were both "subjects" of our respective governments?

Oh dear.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2004, 11:31:25 AM by Curval »
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #217 on: August 18, 2004, 11:33:18 AM »
Note that YOU'RE the one floating the red herring about:

Quote
no-one from Europe or Bermuda is trying to take your guns away. Americans are doing that


I haven't seen Laz saying that. I certainly haven't said that.

What IS being said is that the Euros (and the Bermudan) obviously have a vastly different view of the "need" for firearms. I've said I think that's understandable given the difference in the history with respect to the common man and arms AND the difference in the history of the various firearms sports.

So while we read the erudite discussions of why they feel "no need", it just doesn't apply to us. We DO feel a need; we USE guns recreationally. Always have and hopefully always will.

If that "need" doesn't resonate with Euros/Bermudans....... that doesn't bother me a bit.

Just like it doesn't bother me that desert nomadic tribes see no need for a good fly rod.  ;)
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Curval

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More Gun control???
« Reply #218 on: August 18, 2004, 11:39:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
What IS being said is that the Euros (and the Bermudan) obviously have a vastly different view of the "need" for firearms. I've said I think that's understandable given the difference in the history with respect to the common man and arms AND the difference in the history of the various firearms sports.


Okay...I think you are beginning to act like that fly you described in a thread a while ago...remember?  "bzzzzzzzzzz..."twack...bzzzzz thwack".

I have repeatedly mentioned the fact that guns were legal up until 1971 when our governor, his aide de camp and his dogs were all shot dead.

We, as a people, through our government made the decision to get rid of guns after this incident happened.  We did this with great success.  

In our case it has nothing to do with nomadic tribe anologies.  We know guns.  My father had two rifles in his closet, right up until 1971.  He won one of them in a shooting competition.  He was a pretty good shot as I understand it.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #219 on: August 18, 2004, 11:44:39 AM »
Well, one of us is acting like that fly perhaps.

Yes, your guns were legal. As you admit, however, Bermuda has nothing to hunt. You have no "big game" like deer or elk. You have no huntable populations of gamebirds.

Quote
Now there is none. No hogs, no hunting. There just isn't any room.


It's too crowded to just go shoot rifles plinking at cans and rocks.

Now, if you want to equate that history with ours, our "frontier heritage" that essentially continues today in the actions of millions of American hunters and sportsmen, go ahead.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Curval

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More Gun control???
« Reply #220 on: August 18, 2004, 11:55:09 AM »
Okay...now it is hunting that separates us from "them/you".

See, I jumped into this thread in response to lazs yammering on about "subjects" etc and now I face the wrath of Toad simply because we don't have big game hunting.  Can you see how this might be a bit frustrating?  It is like having goal-posts moved constantly.  Lazs has never mentioned hunting as one of "his" prime reasons for gun ownership...his are more along the lines of the plinking of cans.  

So....fine.  I'm not going to try and compare this island to the US in terms of hunting.  I can't.  

But, I will speak up when I am referred to as less free simply because I cannot sit at home and clean my guns at night in anticipation of shooting trash at a dumpster the next day.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #221 on: August 18, 2004, 12:15:55 PM »
No, you miss my point. I think it is our divergent national histories that separate our views on guns.

And obviously you realize there is no "wrath of Toad" involved. I'm just pointing out my view of this divergence in opinion.

As to the difference between Laz and I, it's simply a matter of priorities. I recognize Laz' "self defence" priority as valid. It is his constitutionally guaranteed right. I'm sure he recognizes my "hunting" priorty in the same way. I'm also sure that if he chose to go hunting, he'd view that right as "all of a piece" with his "self defense" right. I would view my "self defence" rights as all part of the 2nd as well, right along with my hunting rights.

Less free? Well, unless you are a licenced member of a gun clubs.
you can't even HAVE a gun for any reason, right? Not even a BB gun?

From that I'd have to say you aren't as free to have a gun as we are. Now that may not be important to you at all.

Which returns us once again to the beginning. Bzzzzzzzt.

There's a reason why Euros/Bermudans don't feel the "need" for a gun. I think it is based in history that continues to this day.

Just as some desert dwellers wouldn't feel any less "free" if their government prohibited fly rods.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Curval

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More Gun control???
« Reply #222 on: August 18, 2004, 12:18:14 PM »
"There's a reason why Euros/Bermudans don't feel the "need" for a gun. I think it is based in history that continues to this day."

bzzzzzzzzz...yes....bzzzzzzzz zzz and in our case it is because our governor got shot.

"thwack"

:)
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #223 on: August 18, 2004, 12:19:34 PM »
Or maybe it's because your little island has no real opportunities for the masses to indulge in legitimate shooting sports and hasn't for a real long time.

Bzzzzzzzzzt. Thwack.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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More Gun control???
« Reply #224 on: August 18, 2004, 12:20:22 PM »
One hundred years after your Paradise became so desirable that they paved over the last of your golf courses and then banned your golf clubs.....

will you feel a "need" to golf? 100 years later?

;)
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!
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