Author Topic: MA Flyers  (Read 3393 times)

Offline bj229r

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« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2004, 10:10:41 PM »
damn near every time I try out Ct...there are like 15 people (which is OK), but most are at 20kor better  tryin to make DAMN sure they have comfortable 5-10k cushion to b&Z ya to death (which is NOT ok) They want KILLS, not FIGHTS...more fun putting sharp stick in eye
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers

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Offline CurtissP-6EHawk

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« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2004, 10:32:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NoBaddy
What you are saying about real life is quite true. What the CT folks don't want to understand is that most folks play to have fun and, realistic or not, chasing dots around the sky isn't fun. Don't misunderstand, I had a number of fun fights in the CT. BUT, between the flaky radar setup and short range icons, I had a lot more "chase the dot" flights.


Hawk rule number 1; Never chase a dot more than 60 seconds.

Offline CurtissP-6EHawk

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« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2004, 10:33:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bj229r
damn near every time I try out Ct...there are like 15 people (which is OK), but most are at 20kor better  tryin to make DAMN sure they have comfortable 5-10k cushion to b&Z ya to death (which is NOT ok) They want KILLS, not FIGHTS...more fun putting sharp stick in eye


Thats basicly what we do, Fight not furball. Wanna furball, the DA is an excellent arena for that.

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2004, 11:02:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bj229r
damn near every time I try out Ct...there are like 15 people (which is OK), but most are at 20kor better  tryin to make DAMN sure they have comfortable 5-10k cushion to b&Z ya to death (which is NOT ok) They want KILLS, not FIGHTS...more fun putting sharp stick in eye


Timing is everything. The CT mission/event had approximately 60 participants tonight. Engagements ranged from 25k to 1k off the deck. The Allies came in with B-17s and B-26s escorted by mainly P-51Ds and some P-38s. Axis defended with Doras, 109G10s and 190A8s. The Allies had a slight glitch on their initial takeoff when all of the drones mutinied. The P-51 main body seemed to switch roles from escort to diversion at that point. Unfortunately Axis groups scouting East located the bombers with virtually no escort. The bombers were shredded (but not without loss to the Axis). The target bases took some damage from rogue units upping South East.

This time it appears that the Axis came out of it better. May not be so lucky next time.

And the good thing about the CT? Theoretically speaking, we can run these "mini-events" whenever we want.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2004, 11:08:32 PM by Arlo »

Offline J_A_B

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« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2004, 11:06:08 PM »
Ah, the age old icon thing again?

Curtis P-6E, if you can't ID planes at 2 miles, then there's something wrong.  Well, unless you mean something like you can't tell a 152 from a 172 at two miles....that I can understand.  But what about, say, telling apart two distinctly different airplanes from two miles?  I can certainly tell a Beech Bonanza from the aforementioned Cessnas at two miles! Do you not think you could tell a FW-190 from an Me-109 at two miles?  

Planes can indeed be tough to SPOT sometimes; it's funny how they can seemingly hide in thin air.  But once I find them, I seldom find it difficult to identify them--or at least identify their general archtype (eg high-wing single-engine light monoplane).  Spotting planes is something which comes with practice; hollywood-style nonstop panning just doesn't cut it.  I find that I need to pick an area and LOOK, then move on.  This is something flightsims don't really model--and it has nothing to do with ICONS.


I am amazed at your "can barely tell car color at a mile" comment, unless you live in some REALLY polluted city or somewhere with a severe haze problem.   I can EASILY pick out car colors on a highway overpass at a distance of 4 miles as long as the light is right.   And as you certainly know, visibility at ground level is reduced over even what you can see at 5K AGL.  What is wrong with the area you live/work in that your vision is so horribly restricted?  I can do that and I have 20/40 vision!  I live in rural Ohio....best place in the country for the 5 months of the year it's actually nice (and a cold grey slushy hell for the rest of the year, hehe).

Of course if the light WASN'T right all you'd see was the sunlight glare off the windows but such is life.  Flightsims don't and can't model such nuances yet.  I'm not so sure it'd be all that much fun if they did.

Flightsims are a funny thing.  The "dot" you see at 10 miles distance in a flightsim is WAY easier to pick out against the background than a real airplane at 10 miles (there's no "hiding in the sky" on a computer screen); yet even at 500 yards your vision in a flightsim is worse than 20/200 due to resolution limitations and screen size--so bad that flying a PC is akin to flying legally blind!  Isn't it wierd that computer tech makes you an eagle eye at 10 miles, but blind at one mile?

In other words there is NO perfect compromise.  Having NO icons is just as unrealistic as having them, just in different ways. It boils down to a matter of preference.  At 6K yards (3.4 miles)--MAX ICON range in AH--a reasonable person could tell something like a P-47 from a Me-109, but probably couldn't tell a 109 from a Spitfire.  Like I said....it's a choice between which compromise you want to make.  Neither choice is entirely accurate.

------------------------------------------------------------------


As for why I don't fly much in the CT (the ICON thing doesn't actually affect my CT attendance) :

Low population
Lack of P-51D
No desire to re-live or re-create events of 60 years ago....the past is the past.


Reasons I WILL occasionally fly in CT:

Lack of good fights in MA
Night/Dusk in MA
Other events in MA which make it un-fun.


Not that I think the MA is the greatest thing ever (I view it as pretty flawed conceptually actually), but the CT in its current form just doesn't interest me.  It never has.

J_A_B

Offline SELECTOR

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« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2004, 07:17:46 AM »
ARLO i comend you for you unswerving support for the CT, but alas people vote with their feet( mouse cick in this case)..it just aint fun...

Offline Edbert

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« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2004, 07:34:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by peregrin
I've never flown in the CT, for the simple reason that anytime I've looked it's had 20 pilots or less.  Last time I looked was an evening when knights were outnumered 2-1 by rooks, had 5 fields all vulched etc., so I thought I'd try the CT and there were 3, thats right 3 pilots up.

last night when I logged in there were 67 in the CT. Later I checked and it was into the 70s. I'm not saying that is normal but it does make for some fun fights.
Quote
It sounds to me like you need glasses, or new glasses if you already have them.

The color of an automobile (much smaller than even the smallest WWII fighter) is easy to see at a mile.

Telling a twin engined aircraft from a single engined aircraft at two miles doesn't even require concentration. It is simply casual data.

More to the point, I can tell if a single engined aircraft at three or four miles is getting closer or farther away whereas in AH I cannot without the icons.

I do agree that more graduated information would be better.


I'm not trying to be snide or attack you in any way but...
I used to have 20-10 vision, now that I'm a month away from 40 it is down to 20-15. In other words I do not need glasses. With all respect, I think you need to better understand just how far away a mile really is, you are not thinking of a Kilometer are you?  A passenger car at one mile is perhaps larger than the "fuzzy dot" in AH2. But at two miles it is just that, a single pixel blob. Try it on the interstate sometime, use those mile markers. At three miles you cannot even see the car. I'll grant that most of the planes in AH are considerably larger than a passenger car, when you take wingspan and fuselage length. But at extreme range the wings and the fuse become awfully "thin" compared to the "fatness" of a car. In fact an F250 is roughly as "fat" as a P47's fuselage, and they didn't make any fighters bigger than that in WWII. The Bf109 was downright tiny compared to it.

At least the F250's I see around here that are 8-10 feet high at the cab :D
« Last Edit: August 06, 2004, 08:33:05 AM by Edbert »

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2004, 07:54:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SELECTOR
ARLO i comend you for you unswerving support for the CT, but alas people vote with their feet( mouse cick in this case)..it just aint fun...


Selector, it's a matter of opinion and sometimes that opinion is arrived at too hastily and though assumption.

This club's full and that club's not. This club's fun, that club's not. :D

Offline FiLtH

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« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2004, 08:00:08 AM »
CT is alot of fun.  It puts all the guys who want to fly in an organized flight (which doesnt always happen in MA) together to fly a big mission. It doesnt matter if we "Get the goon in!"  Its not about capturing bases as quick as you can..its about the mission.

  Thats the reason I play this game.

~AoM~

Offline Oldman731

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« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2004, 08:25:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by CurtissP-6EHawk
Thats basicly what we do, Fight not furball. Wanna furball, the DA is an excellent arena for that.

..er...we furball, too.  Something for everyone.  Because the numbers are lower, we tend to have frequent 1v1 or 2v1 fights, which are a lot of fun.

- oldman

Offline Edbert

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« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2004, 08:30:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by J_A_B
In other words there is NO perfect compromise.  Having NO icons is just as unrealistic as having them, just in different ways. It boils down to a matter of preference.  


While we may disagree on many of the other things you said, on this we are in 100% agreement. I also realize that my icon preference is in the minority and accept that fully.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2004, 08:36:23 AM »
Interesting thread, with especially interesting posts from JB73 and Edbert. When I get some time to play again, I'm going back to the CT. I liked the (relatively) realistic matchups - one was F6F v N1K - that was good. Another match was P47 & Hurr2 v 109F & 190A5 - that was OK too. Much better camaraderie in there. Lots of , and I don't mind being shot down by ScatSr/ScatJr. Some of the matchups were not so good - 109G6 v SpitV, especially as that was AH1 and the SpitV could make 800yd laser shots - all a thing of the past now. (SpitV v 109F4 would have been better match)

Quote
Originally posted by DipStick
'sissyfire'
:lol

Offline Toad

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« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2004, 08:46:43 AM »
Kinda funny thread. Guy asks why folks don't fly the CT. Folks reply with their reasons. Guy says their reasoning is just wrong.

:lol

Visual cues? Jeez, hasn't this been beaten to death?

No? Here, two old threads that show you what's wrong in the game compared to real life... some pictures may be gone now though.

Test Questions on visual "Realism"

"Visual Realism", Part Deux

Anyway, keep asking for suggestions on making the CT more popular and then tell the suggesters they don't know what they're talking about in the same thread.

It provides some entertainment.
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Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2004, 09:04:41 AM »
Several reasons I think why you dont see larger numbers in the CT.

first and foremost. Its not where the crowd is.
Most people want to be where the crowd is.

Secondly and almost as big a reason is the limited plane set. People want to fly what they want to fly. Many. if not most have their favorite planes, or only will fly one or two different kinds of planes. And thats what they want to fly.

thirdly and the reason I rarely gop to the CT is the last few times I was there all it was, was a smaller version of the MA with all the gangbanging and vulching going on.
Or you get a situation like I had the last time I was there.
There were about 10 planes while they werent vulching the field were hanging out just outside the feild at about 5K.
They would let you get up just long enough to get outside feild ack range but not enough to get any real fighting E up then come in on you 5-6 at a time from different directions.
After about 10 min of that I said the hell with it.
I can get ganged in the MA and at least most of the time it will be by different people
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Offline CurtissP-6EHawk

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« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2004, 09:54:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by J_A_B
Ah, the age old icon thing again?

Curtis P-6E, if you can't ID planes at 2 miles, then there's something wrong.  Well, unless you mean something like you can't tell a 152 from a 172 at two miles....that I can understand.  But what about, say, telling apart two distinctly different airplanes from two miles?  I can certainly tell a Beech Bonanza from the aforementioned Cessnas at two miles! Do you not think you could tell a FW-190 from an Me-109 at two miles?  

Planes can indeed be tough to SPOT sometimes; it's funny how they can seemingly hide in thin air.  But once I find them, I seldom find it difficult to identify them--or at least identify their general archtype (eg high-wing single-engine light monoplane).  Spotting planes is something which comes with practice; hollywood-style nonstop panning just doesn't cut it.  I find that I need to pick an area and LOOK, then move on.  This is something flightsims don't really model--and it has nothing to do with ICONS.


I am amazed at your "can barely tell car color at a mile" comment, unless you live in some REALLY polluted city or somewhere with a severe haze problem.   I can EASILY pick out car colors on a highway overpass at a distance of 4 miles as long as the light is right.   And as you certainly know, visibility at ground level is reduced over even what you can see at 5K AGL.  What is wrong with the area you live/work in that your vision is so horribly restricted?  I can do that and I have 20/40 vision!  I live in rural Ohio....best place in the country for the 5 months of the year it's actually nice (and a cold grey slushy hell for the rest of the year, hehe).

Of course if the light WASN'T right all you'd see was the sunlight glare off the windows but such is life.  Flightsims don't and can't model such nuances yet.  I'm not so sure it'd be all that much fun if they did.

Flightsims are a funny thing.  The "dot" you see at 10 miles distance in a flightsim is WAY easier to pick out against the background than a real airplane at 10 miles (there's no "hiding in the sky" on a computer screen); yet even at 500 yards your vision in a flightsim is worse than 20/200 due to resolution limitations and screen size--so bad that flying a PC is akin to flying legally blind!  Isn't it wierd that computer tech makes you an eagle eye at 10 miles, but blind at one mile?

In other words there is NO perfect compromise.  Having NO icons is just as unrealistic as having them, just in different ways. It boils down to a matter of preference.  At 6K yards (3.4 miles)--MAX ICON range in AH--a reasonable person could tell something like a P-47 from a Me-109, but probably couldn't tell a 109 from a Spitfire.  Like I said....it's a choice between which compromise you want to make.  Neither choice is entirely accurate.

------------------------------------------------------------------


As for why I don't fly much in the CT (the ICON thing doesn't actually affect my CT attendance) :

Low population
Lack of P-51D
No desire to re-live or re-create events of 60 years ago....the past is the past.


Reasons I WILL occasionally fly in CT:

Lack of good fights in MA
Night/Dusk in MA
Other events in MA which make it un-fun.


Not that I think the MA is the greatest thing ever (I view it as pretty flawed conceptually actually), but the CT in its current form just doesn't interest me.  It never has.

J_A_B

Alright, I give a bit more detail;
I can see a white car, red car, blue car but they are alll bright colors. I can not tell the diff between a 152 or 172 at two miles but yes, a low wing, high wing short stubby, long this etc, I can tell. Try spotting a cammo UH60 1/2 mile below you at and 1000ft LOW TO THE GROUND. Its not easy. Pending light and sun angle. I fly every day at 1,200 feet agl for 4 hours. In highly congested military T-6 trafic as well as Helos and fighters. C-130s stick out like a sore thumb, when higher. It depends on light, color, visability and sun angle. Over all, it aint easy!