Author Topic: P-51 vs Ki-84  (Read 3691 times)

Offline TBolt A-10

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P-51 vs Ki-84
« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2004, 05:17:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mitsu
HAYATE:
Generally translated as "gale" but the Japanese meaning also denotes a sudden, unwelcome, or ill-bringing wind. The nickname of the Type 4 Fighter (Ki-84), a.k.a. "Frank".


if Mitsu says it, it's so.  :lol   thanks for the info.

Offline Mitsu

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P-51 vs Ki-84
« Reply #46 on: August 08, 2004, 06:05:55 PM »
Ki-84 vs F6F
Ki-84 vs P-38
Ki-84 vs P-51

Oh yeah, I can't wait...

Offline -ammo-

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P-51 vs Ki-84
« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2004, 07:21:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
In WB flying for the Axis side, I needed a Ki84 against the P51. The 190s weren't up to it and neither were the 109s (we didn't have the G10 but had the K model). I once went to 40K in a P38L and had 3xki84 trying to get up to me - LOL. They couldn't quite get there, but were close.

In RL the ki84 was known to suffer from build quality issues.  Wonder if they're modelled...


Doubtful.  HTC isn't known for that.  If so, we would see such stuff as a paddle-blade prop on the D-11, Fuel leaks, flat tires on landings, boogers on the windscreen, etc..
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Offline Adogg

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P-51 vs Ki-84
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2004, 01:21:42 PM »
Its a new plane.
Lets hold the bullchit about what it will or will not replace/outclass/etc. until we see the big bird in action.

My guess. The first guy to up one will get swatted down because everyone will wanna kill it fast. It'll be the ***** of every gangbang.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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P-51 vs Ki-84
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2004, 01:41:02 PM »
Ki-84 vs P-51


Offline 2stony

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P-51 vs Ki-84
« Reply #50 on: August 09, 2004, 03:08:28 PM »
Try out "Il-2 Aces Expansion Pack", you'll get to fly all three models of the Ki-84.

:aok

Offline slimm50

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P-51 vs Ki-84
« Reply #51 on: August 09, 2004, 04:13:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Delirium
As I feared, this thing is going to replace the La7, the Spit, and the Nik in one felled swoop. It was bad enough seeing those three all the time, but its still better than just seeing one aircraft.

At least in AW you could shame pilots into abandoning the Frank for a mor emanly ride, sometimes. But that won't work in here, as no one has any shame.:D

Offline Kweassa

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P-51 vs Ki-84
« Reply #52 on: August 09, 2004, 11:36:47 PM »
How's the Ki-84 gonna 'replace' any of those planes?

 Even if it's performance is optimistically modelled it still would be essentially a 'cross' between La-5FN and a Spit9 at low altitudes... or, a Spit14 with a downgraded climb and no high-alt performance.

 With the inherent changes in AH2, as opposed to how it was in AH1 - especially in gunnery - , speed is THE most important factor as a top fighter plane in usage/preference. The Spit9 and the N1K2 always had a combined usage rate of 20% in AH1, which in AH2 has dropped full 5% which is significant in usage numbers, with the N1K2 doing anywhere between 7~8%, and the Spit9 6~7%. In turn the Bf109G-10 has risen 1.5% at least, and the Fw190D-9 sees full 3% more usage than AH1 standards.  


Deck Speeds
-------------------
Tempest Mk.V 386
La-7 380
F4U-4 378
Fw190D-9 375
Typhoon Ib 370
P-51D 367
Bf109G-10 366
Ta152H-1 361
Ki-84-Ia 360 (optimisitic)
Spitfire Mk.XIV 358
F4U-1 358
P-51B 358
F4U-1D 357
F4U-1C 356
La-5FN 356
Ki-84-Ia 355 (mildly optimisitic)
Yak9-U 355
Ki-84-Ia 350 (expected)
Fw190A-8 349
Fw190F-8 349
Ki-84-Ia 345 (mildly conservative)
P-38L 344
P-47D-11 344
P-47D-25 340
P-47D-30 340
Ki-84-Ia 340 (conservative)
Bf109G-2 340
Fw190A-5 339
-------------------

 It's certainly a fast plane, and nothing like any of the Japanese planes we had so far. Probably a very formiddable one. But it's still not fast enough to cope with the most overused planes of P-51D and La-7.

 Also, I'm skeptical as whether it would really turn like a Spit9 in a sustained condition. Remember that everybody assumed that the Spit14 would turn like a Spit9 or Spit5, as some records have indicated that those two planes had 'no difference in turning circle'.

 The Spit14 is probably one of the best fighters in the set if it was unperked, but certainly it does not turn like a Spit9. In fact for many it was a big disappointment.

 Another factor in maneuverability mentioned is the fowler-type combat flaps, but considering the conditions in which flaps are used in AH, unless there is material proof suggesting flaps can be popped out over 250mph IAS, like in the case of most of AH planes it won't become a factor in maneuvering until the plane is really slow.

 All in all, the La-7 and P-51D usage levels would stay nearly the same. A significant part of Spit-N1K2 users would move to the Ki-84-Ia, but those who have been accustomed to Fw190D-9, P-51D, La-7 will probably not be interested in it.

 My estimate is that the Ki-84-Ia will draw its base mostly from the former Spit9/N1K2 users, and some of the people who like flying "exotic" planes like the C.205 or the Yak-9U, La-5FN - the sort of planes that are highly competitive but not very popular in the MA.

 My estimates in usage numbers would be something like;

P-51D same at 10%
La-7 same at 10%
Spit9 down to 5%
N1K2 down to 4%
Ki-84-Ia up to 8%

 A very wide used plane indeed, but doesn't 'replace' anything.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2004, 11:42:41 PM by Kweassa »

Offline simshell

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P-51 vs Ki-84
« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2004, 12:44:14 AM »
Kweassa nice post about the stats

but think why do those people fly those niks and spits not because there fast thats for sure

so why would alot of them move to the KI84
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Offline Guppy35

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P-51 vs Ki-84
« Reply #54 on: August 10, 2004, 02:42:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Ki-84 vs P-51



Where'd you find that image GRUNHERZ?  506th FG Mustangs are an interest of mine and that's one in the background flying vs that Ki-84

599 was better known as "Anything Goes" and was flown by Captain Pete Nowick

You can see it as the trailing Mustang in the image included showing them near Iwo Jima where they were based.

Notice the artist messed up a bit by forgetting the twin antenna on the fuselage and the single under the nose that was a mod done to the Iwo 51s to give them a directional locater back to Iwo for the long over water flights.

Since  Nowick survived the war as did 599, it's safe to say this particular Ki84 pilot missed.

Dan/Slack
« Last Edit: August 10, 2004, 02:50:01 AM by Guppy35 »
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Offline Karnak

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P-51 vs Ki-84
« Reply #55 on: August 10, 2004, 11:23:10 AM »
I don't see the Ki-84 taking all that many from the N1K2. It simply hasn't got the magazine capacity that N1K2 fliers are used to, especially considering the insane rate of fire the Ho-5 has.  The Ki-84 will probably take most of the Japanese players from the N1K2 as it is the new Japanese super plane.  Speed leads to success even if the speed is only a narrowing of the gap.

I can see more Spitfire Mk IX pilots switching as they are already used to a short clip.  The Ki-84's speed and fuel range may be very attractive to non-Spitfire fan Spit pilots.


I don't know where the Ki-84 got a reputation for being that much of a speed demon.  My take on it was always that it would greatly narrow the speed gap between the Japanese and late war Allied aircraft.  That coupled with its maneuverability will make it a very dangerous opponent.  It should fall into the line of "Anything that can out run it can be out turned by it and anything that can out turn it can be out run by it".  Sorta like the La-7 if the La-7 couldn't outrun everything out there.


Then there are people who fly the exotics. They may switch to it for it's novelty, but as it's novelty wears off and it's "Dweeb Plane" status sets in they'll abandon it.

I'm going to switch to it because I am really tired of fighting La-7s in the lumbering Mossie.  I want to kill La-7s easily and I think I am good enough to do so if I flew a real fighter.
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Offline Kweassa

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P-51 vs Ki-84
« Reply #56 on: August 10, 2004, 11:47:14 AM »
Quote
Kweassa nice post about the stats

but think why do those people fly those niks and spits not because there fast thats for sure

so why would alot of them move to the KI84


 It's for empirical reasons.

 In the combat flight simming world, since the days of its first appearance on personal computers, there always have existed essentially two different types of preference factors in choosing one's plane.

 The first tendency is the 'orthodox' or 'historic', quite in junction with the real-life historic outcome of evolution of fighter craft.

 Essentially the faster plane, which preferrably would handle bette at high speeds, is a historic/orthodox choice for many people. The more sophisticated and accurate a portrayal of air combat is in a certain game, the more people choose faster late-war planes - as speed ensures survival, and dominance of fight. When one flies it right, one may not necessarily win, but at least one never loses in those planes.

 The other tendency is the 'unorthodox'  or 'ahistoric'. In a critical way of thinking, it sort of can be viewed as a exploitation of the limits of a game as opposed to reality.

 In a real air combat two hostile forces are both organized in a military fashion, and operate with certain decorum and procedures as a team. In this environment, the side equipped with slower planes are usually always the ones in deep trouble.

 However, in a game, there are far more diverse and unrealistic situations where slower but more nimble planes may actually be more advantageous. As far as the pilots of those types of planes have the patience and self-control of limiting one's own engagements to best exploit the situation, the slower but more maneuverable planes have distinct qualities - especially in the offensive role.

 When a Spit9 or a N1K2 finds a plane lower and/or slower than him, he latches on and usually does not let it get away. He drives and forces his opponent to harsh maneuvering which in turn, might mean the demise of the Spit9/N1K2 pilot himself - IF there are other enemies nearby.... which means, if the pilot of the Spit9 or N1K2 can avoid that situation, and only seek out those he can easily claim, then getting a kill in a Spit9 or a N1K2 is almost ridiculously easier than doing the same in a Fw190D-9 or a P-51D or a La-7.

 In other words, if the Spit9 or the N1K2 is employed as a purely offensive plane in limited situations where one side ALREADY has dominance over the other(vulches, hordes, local airsuperiority, low-alt brawls, huge alt advantage, etc etc..), then it may actually provide better results than faster planes.

 Ofcourse, the speed in uninspiring - which means in a situation where it has to work to gain dominance, it sucks, and has low survivability. That's why the Spit9 and the N1K2 has low K/D, and considered as a 'grunt' plane. That's why some of the most notorious(but hardly respected) Spit9/N1K2 'professionals' are only seen inside huge hordes or vulches.

 The Hurricane or the A6M  possess simular possibilities, but these are too much slow to be of combat-worthy in most situations, in an arena infested by '44, '45 planes. The Spit9 and the N1K2 would probably be the lowest limit one can go down to, to expect at least some kind of potency in the MA.

 ...


 Now, add in the Ki-84 into the equation. If it performs anything like expected, it would do 340~360 mph at deck. This, is noticeably faster than both the Spit9 or the N1K2, but still much slower than the La-7 or the P-51D. However, it would most probably become the best maneuvering plane for that speed range, and also better maneuvering than a lot of even slower planes.

 In that case, it is natural to assume that people who fly the P-51D or the La-7 in the MA(barring the few who fly those planes for the reasons that it REALLY is the plane of his special interest - such as the 13th TAS or the 412th, or the 9th GIAP...) fly it for its speed.

 These people have no reason to fly the Ki-84 at all. It's still not fast enough.

 However, those who fly the Spit9 or the N1K2 have a significant alternative which might hugely improve their survival rate, as well as provide better chance of catching faster enemy planes running away.

 In a simple analogy of cause and effect, the people who would most benefit from the Ki-84, is the people who would fly the Spit9 and the N1K2.

 Almost certainly the Japanese pilots would all at once, turn to the Ki-84.

 All the rest of the MA who flies Spit9s or N1K2s (except the people who fly the Spit9 because he REALLY is a RAF fan.. or he REALLY likes the N1K2 as it is..).. those who choose the Spit9/N1K2 would also definately turn to the Ki-84.

 People don't fly the N1K2 or the Spit9 for its speed, that's for sure.

 But they fly it because it offers best K/T(kill-time ratio) - easy planes to fight and kill in.

 Now, if there's a plane that's very simular or slightly worse in maneuverability(which, is the main source of its high K/T), but is significantly faster... ?

 There you have it. Reasons why former Spit9/N1K2 pilots would be the ones who turn to the Ki-84-Ia.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2004, 01:03:42 PM by Kweassa »

Offline Karnak

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P-51 vs Ki-84
« Reply #57 on: August 10, 2004, 12:08:18 PM »
I don't know Kweassa, I still think N1K2 fliers will be shocked by the short ammo clip.
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Offline Kweassa

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P-51 vs Ki-84
« Reply #58 on: August 10, 2004, 01:18:25 PM »
I thought about that too Karnak.

 I meet two types of N1K pilots regularly - in the American/European prime time, a lot of mediocre pilots use the N1K2-J. In my Pacific prime time, I get to fight a horde of N1K2s the Japanese gamers are piloting, who are usually difficult opponents in up-close-and-personal fights.

 However, in both cases I've rarely seen them land more than 3 kills. As a matter of fact, the notorious N1K2 pilots of my own prime time having such problems were actually shocking as well as amusing. These are the same guys used to snipe my plane at 800 yards and extending. Now, even if I fall down to '400' distance marker, as long as I have speed I can outrun them away easily. Only when I'm caught really slow, and the distance isn't parting, that I ever get shot down at 400~600.

 They've become more adapted to AH2, but still the only times I see them land more than 5 kills is when they start a vulch(which, by the way, they are very good at..).

 In conditions surrounding AH2 I believe the burden of slow speed, and the need to close in at least full 200 yards more than they used to in AH1, outweighs the burden of having lower ammo load.

 There's an interesting phenomenon going in place in Pac prime time - that the N1K2 specialists have moved over to the La-7 !! They still fly a lot of Spit9s and N1K2s, but I've seen them testing out more and more faster planes. Slowly, they are starting to move over to faster planes too.. which of course, trend might take a different course if the Ki-84 arrives.

 In short, in AH2 higher ammo load doesn't seem to mean much if your plane is slow. So much more rounds are wasted and needed to be sprayed, in order for most of them to shoot down anything.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #59 on: August 10, 2004, 01:29:22 PM »
Hmmm.  I've flown the N1K2 twice since AH2 came out, the first flight I landed 11 kills, my second highest total ever in any aircraft, and all were ait-to-air. It was the ammo clip that enabled me to do that.

The second time I took off of a CAPed base and got one before being taken out.;)
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