Aircraft Testing Criteria - Some Test Results

[Zigrat]

wells,
the problem with your method is that e retention of the different airplanes will var ywith altitude, according to the power they generate at the different altitudes. thats why i chose to do my testing at a constant altitude and jjust maintain as high a g load as possible without decelerating or gaining/losing alt. yours will give results that probably are just as meaningful given pilot error in obtaining the data, though.

[Tac]

Lemme see... oh yeah, P38 dives 4k on a n1k, reaches about 420mph, n1k does a high g turn to evade the bounce (vertical or horizontal turn), p38 zooms straight up with full wep on, shift-x on the zoom to keep the E as long as possible.. watch 6, n1k will end his 180 turn and zoom up after 38 and get into firing range and kills the 38 with a few pings.

Now, I dont see how the hell a plane with POOR CLIMB can not only turn that tight but also zoom up after a plane that was near compression and that zoomed straight up after the dive without any kind of turn...specially against a plane that has one of the best zoom rates out there.

As animal said, 1 pass then run..and PRAY the ufo doesnt end its 180 e-loss-less tight turn and catch you. Or my way, just HO the thing and to hell with it, its not worth the effort to run from it.

The n1k was supposed to have automatic butterfly flaps which gave it great manouv..and also great drag as well. The drag part seems....ommitted to say the least.

Finally, where's the torque on a monster HP plane thats so light? I can barely feel any torque effects on that thing unless I get it to near stall and make a full rudder turn.

[SOB]

And, uh, still no film right Tac?

[Rud3dawg]

ok let me re-frase this so that the less fortunate in the brain department can understand...

ANYONE WHO BELIEVES THAT THE NIKI IN REAL LIFE WAS A BETTER AIRCRAFT THAN ANY MODEL F4U IS A diddlyING IDIOT AND FURTHERMORE I WOULD LOVE TO SEE YOU GET IN ONE AND DIVE AT 500MPH FOR EVEN 2 FUKING SECONDS AT 500MPH *(LIKE YOU CAN IN THE GAME AND PULL HI G TURNS OUT OF THAT DIVE)AND THEN DROP ME AN EMAIL AFTERWARDS BECUASE YOU WOULDN'T FUKING BE ALIVE!!!!!

ALSO WE DON'T HAVE A F4U-4 WHICH IS WHAT THE N1K2-J WOULD HAVE GONE UP AGAINST DO TO THE FACT IT CAME OUT IN 1944 AND SO DID THE F4U-4
AND I PROMISE YOU THAT THE F4U-4 WAS MUCH BETTER A PLANE THAN THE N1K2 IN REAL LIFE IT DIDN'T EVEN MATCH UP WITH THE -1 MODEL CORSAIRS IN REAL LIFE (DOESN'T MEAN IT WASN'T PROBLY THE ONE OF THE BEST FIGHTERS THAT JAPAN HAD BUT IT STILL COULDN'T KEEP UP AND NEVER GOT MANY KILLS AND HALF NEVER SAW REAL COMBATE BECAUSE THEY WERE SENT ON SUICIDE MISSIONS THERE FIRST TIME IN COMBAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rudedawg

[gijeff]

Salute Gents,

     I have to agree that something is very wrong with the e retention of the niki, I have taken a D-hog from about 1-3k above a nik, dived under his H/O attempt, and watched as he did an immelman, while I kept on course and in a dive to extend past him and drop ordinance before turning to deal with him, the niki then proceeded to CATCH me while I was in a dive, going 450+ mph within seconds (we are talking less than 20 here folks).  I think ANYONE can agree that a manuver such as an immelman, used to to change direction quickly, certainly uses up E VERY quickly.  How then does a Nik accellerate to 450mph plus to catch a fighter that never manuvered at all except to dive and pick up yet MORE speed. Unless I missed my guess the speed difference between the Nik and the hog is negligable, and while the nik can out accellerate almost anything in the arena, it shouldn't be able to out accellerate something that NEVER DECELLERATED.  I have been able to do loops in the nik almost indefinitely and saw little or no loss of speed, all of this at near blackout g forces.  Try that in any other plane in the arena, hell, even a spit will letcha know you are gonna stall, soon you will be unable to hold a turn tight enough to stay near blackout, then stall follows soon after.  Try this test, loop the bird till it stalls, nik will do so after MANY more rotations I suspect.  I have no hard evidence to back any of this up, but being caught from behind by a bird that was a few moments ago hanging on it's prop seems a little off to me.  

And don't bother to characterize this information as a whine, I just try to point out what I observe to be discrepancies in the FM so that it can be improved.  After all this IS a sim where the owners LISTEN to us and attempt to make changes where appropriate.  Personally I have had alot of fun flying a nik in the ma, it doesn't act like a real airplane, but what the heck?  

It does get a bit tiresome watching one H/O attempt after another by the same nikis until someone hasn't enough E to turn to face them and evade, then they get hit by 4X20mm.  You KNOW you can't outrun the thing, you SURELY can't out accellerate the thing, hell you can outturn him for a bit but he won't lose E and you will, so eventually you are on the ragged edge of a stall, while he is flying around like he never turned at all.  The only success I have had against Nikis is to try to take em out early, before losing your E, and that has to happen in a fighter that can outturn him handily.

Jeff Waite
aka GIJeff

[Animal]

YOU SHOULD GET A LIFE AND FIX YOUR CAPS LOCK KEY BEFORE I HAx0R j00 HAHAHHA 0WN3D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111

[janneh]

Originally posted by Gargoyle:
...Then you can b & z them a good four or five times before having to run and regroup.

That's ok, but when niki starts to turn its nose on you during every boom and very soon after that, you being accused of HO'ing...
I just can't get it.
Say you BnZ niki with P-47. Doesn't that niki driver understand that he has way more agile ac and HE has ALL the options how to deal with BnZ jug. In reality, against niki, you don't have much choise with jug,but BnZ.
After killing niki, he crawls on ch1 to cry for HO's. Oh,pls!!!!!

Sorry for dragging this out of subject, which btw is very interesting and important.

About testing. How about testing ac's like HOOF or IDDON did it on WB?

[ 06-13-2001: Message edited by: janneh ]

[Pepe]

Originally posted by gijeff:
Salute Gents,

     ... I think ANYONE can agree that a manuver such as an immelman, used to to change direction quickly, certainly uses up E VERY quickly.  How then does a Nik accellerate to 450mph plus to catch a fighter that never manuvered at all except to dive and pick up yet MORE speed. Unless I missed my guess the speed difference between the Nik and the hog is negligable, and while the nik can out accellerate almost anything in the arena, it shouldn't be able to out accellerate something that NEVER DECELLERATED.....

While I aggree that the N1K2 FM allows for some wild manouvers (haven't got a clue wether that sticks to reality or not), I disagree that Immelman is an E-consuming manouver. When into an immelman, given it is a smooth one, you are just converting kinetic energy (speed) into potential energy (alt). And you finalise it with a barrell (usually at lo speed) that is a low E-consuming manouver. So no lot of E to blow in an Immelman.

With regards with him catching you, It depends a lot on the smash both of you had on the merge. If he was faster than you, he might catch you even if you do not manouver at all.

A N1K2 with E-advantage is a *VERY* dangerous opponent. But is not that fast, definitely not up high. Doras, Ponys, La's, Typhoons, Hogs, to name a bit, can disengage from a co-E merge with N1K2's using speed.

Personally, I find a lot more annoying the F4U-1C thant the N1K2. Hog is fast (faster than N1K2), outrolls almost anything in the Arena, it's sturdy, and can do pretty wild manouvers, as well. Plus nothing beats 4xHispano when coming to punching power  

Cheers,

Pepe

[Fatty]

Rudedawg, the e is backwards in your BBS name.

[ 06-13-2001: Message edited by: Fatty ]

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Fariz:
I keep 3d picture inside my head and can judge e and position of any planes even not seeing it, but with niki I am always wrong. It shall be some explanation.

Fariz.

The explanation is that you allow yourself to be continually amazed by the Niki's performance instead of adjusting for it in the 3D picture within your head.  If the Niki consistently outturns you or otherwise holds onto E more than you'd expected, then you need to make a concerted effort to expect it to do that.  That is, quit falling victim to underestimation.  

I'm just baffled at how this could be the plane's fault for fooling you.

-- Todd/DMF

[AKcurly]

You guys (not you creamo   ) must be smoking something.  Consider a N1K poking along in level flight at 320mph.  He's on the 6 of a F4U, say d 1.0.  He's not going to catch the F4U - you know it and I know it.

How in the world do you expect a N1k to catch a F4U as it's diving?  Hell, the control surfaces of the N1k freeze up before 500 mph (the F4U doesn't.)

There's only one way a N1K is going to shoot a F4U that's diving past him and that's for the N1K to make an exquisitely timed turn so that for a few seconds, he has a target opportunity.

In jokes, I've often read there isn't enough blood in the human body to operate a brain and noodle at the same time.  I'm beginning to believe the same thing applies to a joystick.

Guys, the N1K turns really well; it accelerates well (not the greatest, but ok.)
If you linger near one, it's going to kill you.

Take some really good pilots like AKDJv, Nimitz or Fariz1.

In tour 16, dj was 15-1 against the N1k.  In tour 17, dj is 3-1, but DJ is flying a p51B this tour.

In tour 17, Nimitz is 30-3 and Fariz is 30-8 against the uber N1k.

In tour 16, me, an average pilot, was 36 and 25 against the N1k.

On the other hand, an excellent pilot like Hblair is 17-17 against the N1k.  Why is that?  My guess is that Hblair loves to get his 109 down in the dirt.  He's convinced his crossed-controls maneuvers will prevail against the N1k.  If my guess is right, then a score of 17-17 is freaking uber.

Perking planes is a load of crap!  If you want to perk something, perk the freaking pilots!    Just joking ... about perking pilots - good pilots find ways to kill superior aircraft  - that's it in a nutshell.

AKcurly

[MANDOBLE]

Pepe, agree 100% with you. But I woudln't call nikki's maneovers "wild". All I see with Nikki are perfectly reasonable flying "paths" while manouvering, but at half the scale most of the other planes can do. Shorter turn radious while greater turn speed, almost no E lost, impressive acceleration, etc, but the "paths" seems normal. In the other hand, HOG-D/C is the one that really do WILD moves. It is more like an acrobatic plane than a combat one, while keeping the speed, acceleration and punch power of a fighter.

And now, about Creamo tests. There is an important factor missing here, as important as the altitude gained: the time in the vertical with full control. Perhaps, niki cant gain as much altitude as 109G10 in a vertical zoom, but while the 109 is with almost no real control and starting to going down, the nikki keeps "like hang" in the vertical, with full control, not gaining much altitude, but aiming at the 109 with great precission and at less than 500 yards. And not only nikki, Spits, Zekes, Typhs and some others have the same "hanging" property.

[Robert]

good pilots find ways to kill superior aircraft - that's it in a nutshell.

This is the only plane i havent figured out a tactic for other than be above it or run. The F4U was a match for my 51 but i could kill it most of the time. If i attack a niki co alt co-e i will most surely die.

RWY

[Vermillion]

I thought this thread was a "How too do flight testing?" not a squeak whine about the Niki.

Creamo, here is how the Navy does it. Its an excellent little resource.
 http://flighttest.navair.navy.mil/unrestricted/FTM108/

Naval Test Pilot School
Flight Test Manual
USNTPS-FTM-No. 108
FIXED WING PERFORMANCE

Hooligan, get ahold of me, I have something you might be interested in.  I had to reformat my HD and my address book.

[Hooligan]

gijeff:

I simply don't believe you.  I have no problems at all outdiving a N1K in an F4u.  The next time you think something like this happens why don't you post film and if don't have a way to get it onto the web you can email it to me and I will post it for you.

Hooligan