New idea what do you ladies and gentlemen think.

[DoctorYO]

HTC to solve the numbers problem i would at least on your end if not already done so force the initial country new pilots fly for to be the one with the lowest numbers..

That way new players go to the least populated country...

Second make more perk planes..  G10 Mustang D, Dora, LA7 (not including spit or niki becuase both are slow and not unbalancing when used in mass.. some may disagree so take a vote its a election year which aircraft should be perked.) should have 5+ perks per aircraft each.. perks should have more of a currency value to it..  with incentive to land your kills.. now the perks get you a plane which is superior to the others but not that superior when including perk tags and other powerhouses like the la7 running around for free..)  If all were perked then gain bang tags would be on Big 4 also .... or remove tags, your choice to give more value to perks..  As of current  you have little value for perks with the big 4-5 running around for free.. this system is sound you just need to implement it full bore not the current limited approach..

(considering i got 7 perks for 2 kills last night in a zeke 5 perks per sortie is paltry..)

Make the perk modifier more extreme exp: when its 100 people over the opposing team they should get 1/4 or less of there normal points.. if your the team outnumbered you should get 1.5x or more.. (hence for the same 2 kills I got 7 perks (note we had most numbers when i got the 7) should be more like 1 or 1.5 perks for 2 kills)

These factors should also be applied to points for scoring purposes..  If a top score pilot wants to hide behind lemming hordes then make that pilot to suffer the lesser point value (1/5 or 1/6 of your fighter rank would be a steep penalty for lemming operations command.)

Install strategic fighter factories similiar to Air Warrior..  g10's la7s P51's (the most dominating aircraft in the game should have these factories in place...)

This will give strat value to blowing up these targets..  (hell i may become a dedicated bomber pilot if i can shaft la7crutch uses for a hour a day......)

The newer FPS's (planetside for example)

Have population locks to help limit the zerg mentality (front runners jackals)  Note My suggestion to aces would be sectors or war fronts that have limits to the population for one side..  To implement this as a dynamic war front will be much harder than the programing that went into planetside becuase each warffront they got is a seperate island/server  note the zerg (masses) still happen but at least the opposing teams have the chance to get a equal number of defenders in highly contested areas..

to make it easier to program; you could use base caps of aircraft per time say only so many aicraft can up from a field at a time..  (i know some are crying foul but in ww2 everybody didn't up from on base and conga to the target they upped from many bases had a rally point and then proceeded to the target..)

maybe 20-30 aircraft per ten minutes per base..  as a aircraft comes into land a new bird is available to be flown.. (using a new command to end flight would save your que on your bird so it doesn't get ganked from under you.. or allow the same aircraft to be available to you no matter what, but must be same aircraft type.., you come in p40b and the base is expended then you leave in a p40b)

This base limitation would also make base caputure more fluid..  No more i shot this guy down 15 times only to have him slip thru the net and bag c47 in a suicide attack to prevent base capture..  thats silly but as of current thats what we got....  just keep pressing fly and hopefully (thru act of god or praise to the la7 diety) get thru the cap for 15 secs to bag the capture attempt..   the base/war front limitation would serve as a rudimentry attrition model..

Without attrition you have no warfare..  Without attrition you have gamey behavior..

FPS also solve this by limiting the time before you can respawn .  Die once no penalty..  Die twice more time before you repsawn, die more then more time. you get the picture..  you want to lemming then you play less.   And i tell you it works....


Get rid of country wide radar...  have multiple radar stations or command and control centers per sector..  Enable these to be destroyed with negative effects for such, but never a country wide blackout..  unless the opposing forces blow you to hell then tough luck.. you deserve to be blinded..

maybe make HQ raid increase the time that local radars can be repaired but country wide blackouts are bad.. (me personally i dont care but you should see the green text when that happens no one likes it whatsoever..)

Start listing statistics on sorties per country..  More stats are good...  Use the stats to balance the game accordingly..


well thats just 30 secs of thought so take it for whats its worth..

Go get yourself a planetside account..  you may not play FPS Hitech but some of their solutions for zerging are very well thought out while others are not..
 take the good and drop the bad..

2 cents..

DoctorYo

PS: Considering leaving rookland because the skill factor is in a downward sprial... Wasn't really evident till this camp.. I see alot of friendlys chasing the same bird not engaging other aircraft; Im saving people only to be left high and dry.. as they auger 2 secs later or some other crud reasons why they arn't engaging  and im not impressed.. Rooks your goal is to engage not bait other pilots to serve as your fodder.. I suggest the old Rook Army should exodus and kick the crap out of the new Rook army the queen's berets.  I can tolerate Knits (my Initial Country JG27) but the bish tards are not considered except for mercenary ops..

[Pyro]

Nice discussion.  I would like to add a few points for people to weigh.

In reading this thread, I see people asking for a perk adjustment as a counter proposal.  I get the feeling that people don't realize that there is already a perk adjustment in the current system.  Perk prices and perk point awards are modified by relative country numbers.  This is not enough and we don't feel that further increases it will be the answer and will only cause perk point inflation.

Respawn timers are successfully used in many online FPS games.  I have a hard time believing that FPS players have a longer attention span than flight simmers and that they can flourish with a respawn delay and we can't.

To those who object to this, I'd like you to consider whether your objection is to the system or the degree.  If you  say that this would cause you not to play, would that be the case if delay were 10 seconds?  If not, then you object to the degree the system may used and not really to the system itself.

[Pongo]

HT. You will need to find a way to be sure that those numbers represent what is actually happening on the ground. A simple numbers count wont do it. You will have to establish where the fight is.

Still think its better to establish a sorti rate that a field can maintain then lessen it as hangers are damaged and modify it by the ratio you establish for numbers. So large fields will almost always have a decent sorti rate. But small fields will have a resonable but fragile sorti rate. Make the sorti rate for Jabos slower then the sorti rate for Interceptors. Make the sorti rate for Heavy bombers slower then the sorti rate for medium bombers.

[Karnak]

Of all the suggestions in this thread I like DREDIOCK's "zerg" killing suggestion the best.

Spread the fighting out and deny the overpopulated side the ability to massively out number the defender's in a given sector.  The underpopulated side, or side with too few sectors, would need an exemption from this.  Possibly GVs could be exempt from the limitation, allowing substantial GV pushes to be made at focused points.

This would allow the following:

• Maps still able to be reset with some regularity
• Defenders able to have good fights in chosen sectors
• Attackers able to overwelm defenders by attacking the whole front rather than "zerging" one sector
• Increased chances for balanced forces in a given sector

[yb11]

get rid of the small maps thats the problem on the big maps it dont mater if we are out numberd yes im a KNIGHT

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by hitech

As far as the acctual times go here are a few samples in the range I am thinking. This is based from an average sortie time of 7.5 mins, That was from a random sample of 6 players, I need to queary the enter score base to fine the real average sortie time.

      
   Count   Mins Wait
Bish   100   0.00
Knights   120   0.00
Rooks   120   0.00

   Count   Mins Wait
Bish   100   0.00
Knights   120   0.00
Rooks   140   1.32

   Count   Mins Wait
Bish   100   0.00
Knights   140   0.00
Rooks   200   5.92

   Count   Mins Wait
Bish   100   0.00
Knights   130   0.00
Rooks   200   6.66


HiTech

As mentioned by someone else, what is your contingency in a situation like this:

Rooks: 200
Knights:175
Bishops:100

Knight's have a greater than 20% advantage on Bishops and a less than 20% deficit to Rooks. Would only Rooks receive a sortie timer penalty? That would be incredibly unfair. You need to establish whether the determination for numerical advantage is to be contrued as in relationship to the team in the bucket, the mean average or the largest team. Therefore, you would  have to have some sort of scaling that takes the numerical relationship between all 3 teams into account.

Zazen

[Furious]

Abolish the countries.  

Each new map 3 random team names are chosen.  Prior to arena entry provide a roster that includes a buddylist and locater.  If one team exceeds the numbers of any other team by X%, close enrollment for that team.  If your squad is on the team with largest numbers and you can't get in, then the squad just moves to lowest numbered team for you or tells you, "too bad, we never liked you anyway".



...and always allow switching to team with lowest numbers without a time limit.

[Zanth]

I find most notable and encouraging that both hitech and pyro both acknowledge that there is a problem.  This by itself is the good news, that they are considering doing something about it, even more so.

But to the point and question asked: I say Hitech's proposal is worth a try.


P.S. (since everone else has toseed in their off topic 2 cents, here's mine: I wonder what effect just extending a perk muliplier like effect to scoring would have too.)

[Grimm]

Originally posted by Zazen13
As mentioned by someone else, what is your contingency in a situation like this:

Rooks: 200
Knights:175
Bishops:100

Knight's have a greater than 20% advantage on Bishops and a less than 20% deficit to Rooks. Would only Rooks receive a sortie timer penalty? That would be incredibly unfair. You need to establish whether the determination for numerical advantage is to be contrued as in relationship to the team in the bucket, the mean average or the largest team. Therefore, you would  have to have some sort of scaling that takes the numerical relationship between all 3 teams into account.

Zazen

I agree Zazen,  This is a very likely situation.  

Add to it,  that the bishops and knights may not have much fighting between them  It could easily be
Bishops/Knights 250 vs Rooks 200
The Rooks would be out numbered and penalised at the same time.

HT is right about one thing,  I dont want to change countries.   Its not just my squad that I wish to fly with.   I have many good friends that fly in other squads.  Some squads have bonds with other squads that go back to well before AH.   I guess if I have to sit on my hands for 5 mins between flights its will give us time to talk politics on Ch2    

It looks like the die is cast,  but I still would prefer somthing to help the low country rather than bash the strongest country.

[Murdr]

Originally posted by Zazen13
As mentioned by someone else, what is your contingency in a situation like this:

Rooks: 200
Knights:175
Bishops:100

 

I think he addressed that in his spreadsheet example.

Pluggin those #s into the spreadsheet rooks have 5 min wait, knights are just under the threshold.  Add 5 pilots to knights, and its 30sec wait for knights, and 4-1/2min for rooks

[Killjoy2]

Maybe it should cost more to fly the country with the most numbers.  

hehehehehehe

[hitech]

Ok changed it to be based of the %over the least country.

Formula would be

WaitTime = (YourCountry% - (SmallestCountry% + NoFactor%) )  * MinScale



HiTech

New Sheet Least Per

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by hitech
Ok changed it to be based of the %over the least country.

Formula would be

WaitTime = (YourCountry% - (SmallestCountry% + NoFactor%) )  * MinScale



HiTech

Ahhh , that's much better! I'm satisfied with that formula, it  addressed my major concern posted above.

Zazen

[Grimm]

Originally posted by Grimm

HT is right about one thing,  I dont want to change countries.   Its not just my squad that I wish to fly with.   I have many good friends that fly in other squads.  

Just another thought,   HT your right,  I am part of the Issue.   I wont change countries.   Adding a flight penalty will still not get me to change.    I guess that "the Solution" wont have me changing to bolster the low country so in my cause it wont do anything to effect balance.  

Perhaps some of the key Rook players and COs could talk about some alternate squad nights to spread things out a bit.  But thats more a player solution than a HTC one.  

What I wish for is this,  decent numbers for each country with the Rooks back on the bottom.   The Rooks and some good cross over squads worked hard to build our country into a strong force,  its kinda sad to see HTC wanting to squash that hard work.  

Well,  it appears I am slowing sliding in the whining mode.  So Ill try to get back on track.

[jodgi]

Using a score multiplier has never been tried (AFAIK), it may or may not work, but we don't know that now.

The reason the perk thing doesn't do the job is that many players have so many perks that they don't need to check the perk price and modifier before choosing a plane or country. I crossed this line after about 6 months in this game.

With score it's a different situation.

Even long time players care about their score, some care little some care a lot. I bet there's enough of both newbs and vets that care enough about their score that a score multiplier would leave a mark in the MA.

A score mod system wouldn't bug many players. A whine like: "I want to fly for the superiour side AND get max score!" wouldn't yield much sympathy... I'm sure...

If it doesn't work at all there will be no harm done.

I really think it would make a difference, although it wouldn't be a "be all, end all" solution to numbers imbalance.
----------------------------------------------------

(A score mod system could also be used to encourage players to fly other planes than the "best".)