The headon

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by mars01
Gimme a break Zazen,

This is not some art that take 10 years to become skilled at.  It takes practice, yes but most of all it takes fighting and dieing, trying differnt tactics and perfecting the ones that work.

People will attain the skills if they drop their vulch, ho crutches and start to fight and learn.  Anyone can do it and it does not take that long to become compettive.


BTW If you pat yourself on the back any harder your going to break your arm:D. lolh

Grits I'm with ya 100%

I never said it takes ten years to be good at it. I said I, personally, have spent ten years refining my E fighting tactics. I said it could possibly take several years to become a really good judge of relative E states and E fighting manuevers and tactics. Just as it would take a similiar amount of time to refine and articulate stall-fighting tactics and methods. Mars, you like to bash everything I say for no other reason than to be argumentative, it's getting old, grow-up or shut-up.

My post took a bout 20 minutes to write, it's informative, usefull and true. You write a one liner about Ho'ers having no skill, then start bashing my post and me personally.


Zazen

[mars01]

Not true Zazen, it's just seems that everything you say is either puffing about how great or skilled you are or bashing the Bish.

My impression of your post was, "take it from me the great Zazen..." and "it takes years to get good so Ho"

Sorry if we are at odds a lot of the time.  I don't have anything against you personally it's the things you say.  

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by mars01
Not true Zazen, it's just seems that everything you say is either puffing about how great or skilled you are or bashing the Bish.

My impression of your post was, "take it from me the great Zazen..." and "it takes years to get good so Ho"

Sorry if we are at odds a lot of the time.  I don't have anything against you personally it's the things you say.  

Like it or not mars01, I am very good at what I do. I am about as close to an authority on E fighting tactics as there is in the community after over a decade of working at it with proven success. I never said it takes years to perfect, so just Ho. If anything my post encourages people who do just HO to invest in their future and 'work' those E states and NOT go for the HO. You put this anti-Zazen slant on everything, it's not me against you. It's just facts, data, personal experience, and some basic information on the subtle nuances of air to air combat.

I realize our approach to the game is completely dichotomous, but that does not mean everything I say is incorrect, you need to be a little more open-minded. I find your approach to the game to be a form of airiel masturbation personally, but I do not berate you when you post about it, and how much you enjoy it, that's your personal choice, so long as you're having fun it's all good.

Zazen

[mars01]

Actuall now after reading this post again, if I understand you correctly you are wondering why people ho after the merge or on the down side of a rope?

My bad, I thought this was a why do guys ho in general, first merge etc.

Zazen I apologize and understand in context where you are comming from now.  

Why is it so many people in here just go up and come back down headon when the other plane still has the e to nose on him and return fire? You know..the way 70% of the folks in here E fight. Ive seen alot of guys e fight in the past and they knew how to milk a guy before committing. Guys like Drano and TC.

The whole idea of the rope is to hope the guy you are roping stalls before you, correct?  

If they don't and you stall just before them, then you as the roper are in big trouble and it becomes a kill or be killed attempt.  It is a desperation move created by a bad rope, and take it from me:D, I am horrible at roping.

[mars01]

Like it or not mars01, I am very good at what I do. I am about as close to an authority on E fighting tactics as there is in the community after over a decade of working at it with proven success.

See what I mean.  Dude you are so full of yourself it makes me want to puke.  You are the authority  WTG.  You seem to try and prove it in every post, but yet when the gauntlet is thrown down you back down, but that is a different post.

I never said it takes years to perfect, so just Ho. If anything my post encourages people who do just HO to invest in their future and 'work' those E states and NOT go for the HO.  

We'll from someone who read your post, what I surmised was, it take a while to be the Great Zazen so people are going to ho:lol  You spent the whole post just going on about how masterful you are blahhhh gag me.

You put this anti-Zazen slant on everything, it's not me against you. It's just facts, data, personal experience, and some basic information on the subtle nuances of air to air combat.

No it is anti what you say, there is no anti Zazen.  It is anti self proclaimed masters.  Let your peers and your actions boost you.

I realize our approach to the game is completely dischotomous, but that does not mean everything I say is incorrect, you need to be a little more open-minded.

Is this just poor spelling or are you making up words? Dichotomous.
 Just breaking your balls lol.

I find your approach to the game to be a form of airiel masturbation personally, but I do not berate you when you post about it, and how much you enjoy it, that's your personal choice, so long as you're having fun it's all good.

This is just inflamitory - no need for a reply.

Ok enough of thread stealing here.  Sorry Filth.

[TequilaChaser]

quote:Why is it so many people in here just go up and come back down headon when the other plane still has the e to nose on him and return fire? You know..the way 70% of the folks in here E fight. Ive seen alot of guys e fight in the past and they knew how to milk a guy before committing. Guys like Drano and TC.

The whole idea of the rope is to hope the guy you are roping stalls before you, correct?

If they don't and you stall just before them, then you as the roper are in big trouble and it becomes a kill or be killed attempt. It is a desperation move created by a bad rope,

Is why I will use a spiral climb ( E Bleeding Chandelle ) more so than the straight vertical climb, so I can keep out of his guns solution while bleeding his E, flying " Out of Plane"

and I am no master of the art, I will be learning til the day there is no online flight sims left

[Shane]

Originally posted by FiLtH
Why is it so many people in here just go up and come back down headon when the other plane still has the e to nose on him and return fire? You know..the way 70% of the folks in here E fight. Ive seen alot of guys e fight in the past and they knew how to milk a guy before committing.  Guys like Drano and TC.
 

1.  not so easy to judge relative e-states sometimes and the guy on top mis-judges and ends up nose-nose with the lower guy who may be very close, or not, to the edge of stalling out.

2. time... the typical encounter in MA doesn't provide the time to set up a proper rope before some more baddies show up. it's not impossible, no, but you have to consciously consider the best "location" to do it - i.e., not directly on the hamstard trail.

as for e-fighting... same as above.  while i'm a tnb and heart, i also e-fight given the proper situation, but even then it's a matter of time before a bunch of gangbunnies show up, either yours or theirs.

[Zazen13]

Mars01, not going to quote that mess (I hate when you chop stuff up, it's SO annoying to read!).

But, I don't require anything external to tell me I am good at what I do, I know I am. It is this very self-confidence that is a defining trait amongst real fighter pilots, past and present. I feel no need to prove anything to anyone, I have gone way past that point. I fly for myself, I put alot of thought and effort into my flying, I read books on combat flying and air combat tactics, I buy every WW2 air combat video I can. This is my hobby, and has been for over ten years. I am good at what I do, and I should be with all the experience and practice I have had.

 It's not any kind of holier than thou speech, it's just the truth. I know many others in the game that have been playing as long as I have, I know they are good, some are really great at stallfighting, some are great E fighters, some are both. I don't need to duel them to know this. I know it from watching them from the perspective of friend and foe over the years. I would never deny they have cultivated great talent and skill over the years, it's just a fact. It's not personal, just because someone else is good doesn't mean you are also not good in your own way and you shouldn't need other people telling you that to know it's true.

Zazen

[Shane]

Originally posted by Zazen13
It's not personal, just because someone else is good doesn't mean you are also not good in your own way.

Zazen

bah!  you allllllllllll suxxorz!!!

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Shane
bah!  you allllllllllll suxxorz!!!

Hehe Shane, we know we suck, we can't help it, it's just the way God made us

Zazen

[Buzzz]

And now back to our actual subject....

I'm new to AH but flew AW for many years.  I'm still not used to this head on thing.  I'm sure it's been discussed to death already, but why doesn't Hitech tone down the hit percentage on headons.

I got killed 3 times before I realized that the person who got the kill was the guy on my 12 and not some stealth fighter on my six I had totally missed.  I still have the programming from AW that HO shots are low percentage and a waste of ammo.  I just don't take them myself and now I know to avoid being hit by them.  (I did however kill some dweeb that was insisting on fighting that way the other night.  On his 3rd HO pass I got fed up and blasted his backside out of the sky... hehe)

It seems like the only solution is to water down the hit percentage on headons so that they are an act of desperation not a viable air combat tactic.

-Buzzz

[Wadke]

Basically it depends on what kind of situation i am in.

Say for instance i'm in a good fight with someone or 2 people as is more often, i will not HO at all unless i am HO'd by one of the others first.

In an instance where it is 3 or more vs 1 hellcat (me ) on the deck clawing for each others tails, sure enough i might throw in a few quick HO shots.

The thing i don't understand is that if there is a 3 or more to 1...why would HO that 1 guy? Kinda silly because you could also die and anyways he will more than likely be killed anyways.
(happened last night, 2 190s 1 spit and Il-2 on me Kitty's tail. was HO'd 3-4 times)

[Muddie]

Use a 30mm or 37mm on em.  It don't stop in the radiator.    
 

Originally posted by Zazen13
Unfortunately, this is becoming an ever-increasing rarity. Conditioned by the aformentioned people who will HO at each and every opportunity, most who realize they are against one of these types will sqeeze off a burst themselves. It's strictly a defensive reaction, but nothing dissuades a Ho'er like gettting beat at his own game on the first pass through superior gunnery, having his radiator popped or getting a pilot wound.

Zazen

[mars01]

Ok last time I'm addressing this sorry again filth.

Mars01, not going to quote that mess (I hate when you chop stuff up, it's SO annoying to read!).

But, I don't require anything external to tell me I am good at what I do, I know I am. It is this very self-confidence that is a defining trait amongst real fighter pilots, past and present. I feel no need to prove anything to anyone, I have gone way past that point. I fly for myself, I put alot of thought and effort into my flying, I read books on combat flying and air combat tactics, I buy every WW2 air combat video I can. This is my hobby, and has been for over ten years. I am good at what I do, and I should be with all the experience and practice I have had.

Blah Blah me, my mine lol.  Zazen it has nothing to do with your confidence and everything to do with you constantly going on about how great you are.  All long drawn out boring fluyff "look at me I'm great, look over here at all my practice and books and expeiriance"  lol.  Stop stroking yourself and trying to prove your greatness in your posts and we will be fine.  Let your actions and the community do the talking on your behalf.

It's not any kind of holier than thou speech, it's just the truth. I know many others in the game that have been playing as long as I have, I know they are good, some are really great at stallfighting, some are great E fighters, some are both. I don't need to duel them to know this. I know it from watching them from the perspective of friend and foe over the years. I would never deny they have cultivated great talent and skill over the years, it's just a fact.

It's just annoying that's all, you can discuss stuff without stroking yourself in front of everyone.

It's not personal, just because someone else is good doesn't mean you are also not good in your own way and you shouldn't need other people telling you that to know it's true.

Not sure if you mean "you" as in me, but I'll address just in case.  I'm not worried about what people think about me or my skill, I know where I am good and I know where I am not.

It just gets under my skin when guys are always stroking themselves in public going on about how great they are.  lol.

It is this very self-confidence that is a defining trait amongst real fighter pilots, past and present.

Yeah it is but that also goes hand in hand with a jovial almost self deprecating tounge in cheek response to their skill.  Something your years etc obviously have not mastered.

Many of the great fighter pilots didn't brag at how great they were, even tho the knew they were great.  Most played their ability down and were very humble.

[DoKGonZo]

The problem with easy HO hits is that it puts the pilot who wants to fight properly (be it angles or energy) at a disadvantage. He has to waste effort and energy avoiding an artificially higher percentage chance of getting gut-shot on a 700 mph crossing merge.

This has always been the case in these genre of games for 15 years now.

HO is "valid" in that it was done. Most of the cases I read about were asymetrical ... a heavy US fighter vs. a light Japanese one, or a Luftwaffe fighter against a heavy bomber.

I shouldn't have to barrel and roll and jink on the cross. The guy who wants the head-on shot should have to friggin' work for it. The fact that I'm going 350mph in the opposite direction and at any angle-off to him at all should be plenty of protection.

Right now it isn't this way, so you get La's, 190's, Hurri's, and Ki's who do nothing but manouever for the only shot they'll easily get - the HO. And with some of the warps and stuff, it's easier to get hits head-on than dead-6 many a night. But overall easy HO hits have proven time and time again to have a corrosive effect on gameplay.

    -DoK