Author Topic: The headon (Read 1582 times)

Zazen13 · « **Reply #30 on:** August 11, 2004, 01:41:05 PM »

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Originally posted by mars01

Yeah it is but that also goes hand in hand with a jovial almost self deprecating tounge in cheek response to their skill. Something your years etc obviously have not mastered.

You are totally correct, I have yet to master the art of false modesty. Perhaps you could give me lessons?

The only reason any real fighter pilot who has seen actual combat is in any way humble, is because they have stared 'real' death in the face, that alone creates humility. Have you ever read commentary from German fighter pilots on Eastern front comment on their soviet counterparts? They are in no way humble, nor do they give respect or some sort of chivalrous applause to their foes, they speak of them as unwashed masses of incompetants. Sort of like how I as a Rook refer to most Bishops.

Zazen

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #31 on:** August 11, 2004, 01:45:44 PM »

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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
The problem with easy HO hits is that it puts the pilot who wants to fight properly (be it angles or energy) at a disadvantage. He has to waste effort and energy avoiding an artificially higher percentage chance of getting gut-shot on a 700 mph crossing merge.

This has always been the case in these genre of games for 15 years now.

HO is "valid" in that it was done. Most of the cases I read about were asymetrical ... a heavy US fighter vs. a light Japanese one, or a Luftwaffe fighter against a heavy bomber.

I shouldn't have to barrel and roll and jink on the cross. The guy who wants the head-on shot should have to friggin' work for it. The fact that I'm going 350mph in the opposite direction and at any angle-off to him at all should be plenty of protection.

Right now it isn't this way, so you get La's, 190's, Hurri's, and Ki's who do nothing but manouever for the only shot they'll easily get - the HO. And with some of the warps and stuff, it's easier to get hits head-on than dead-6 many a night. But overall easy HO hits have proven time and time again to have a corrosive effect on gameplay.

-DoK

says it all, well spoken DoK!

SlapShot · « **Reply #32 on:** August 11, 2004, 03:00:09 PM »

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Originally posted by Buzzz
And now back to our actual subject....

I'm new to AH but flew AW for many years. I'm still not used to this head on thing. I'm sure it's been discussed to death already, but why doesn't Hitech tone down the hit percentage on headons.

I got killed 3 times before I realized that the person who got the kill was the guy on my 12 and not some stealth fighter on my six I had totally missed. I still have the programming from AW that HO shots are low percentage and a waste of ammo. I just don't take them myself and now I know to avoid being hit by them. (I did however kill some dweeb that was insisting on fighting that way the other night. On his 3rd HO pass I got fed up and blasted his backside out of the sky... hehe)

It seems like the only solution is to water down the hit percentage on headons so that they are an act of desperation not a viable air combat tactic.

-Buzzz

I doubt that HT will ever water down the hit percentages on any part of the plane. I despise HOs, but still would not like it if HT were to implement this.

One must learn to avoid the avoidable HOs and then captitalize on it.

Like Wadke pointed out, there are certain situations that one is forced to HO for pure survival in a multi-plane engagement. I will HO under these conditions, but never in a 1 v 1 like Shane does ...

SlapShot · « **Reply #33 on:** August 11, 2004, 03:01:22 PM »

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Originally posted by Zazen13
Hehe Shane, we know we suck, we can't help it, it's just the way God made us

Zazen

Yeah ... ME TOO !!!

SlapShot · « **Reply #34 on:** August 11, 2004, 03:13:34 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by DoKGonZo
The problem with easy HO hits is that it puts the pilot who wants to fight properly (be it angles or energy) at a disadvantage. He has to waste effort and energy avoiding an artificially higher percentage chance of getting gut-shot on a 700 mph crossing merge.

This has always been the case in these genre of games for 15 years now.

HO is "valid" in that it was done. Most of the cases I read about were asymetrical ... a heavy US fighter vs. a light Japanese one, or a Luftwaffe fighter against a heavy bomber.

I shouldn't have to barrel and roll and jink on the cross. The guy who wants the head-on shot should have to friggin' work for it. The fact that I'm going 350mph in the opposite direction and at any angle-off to him at all should be plenty of protection.

Right now it isn't this way, so you get La's, 190's, Hurri's, and Ki's who do nothing but manouever for the only shot they'll easily get - the HO. And with some of the warps and stuff, it's easier to get hits head-on than dead-6 many a night. But overall easy HO hits have proven time and time again to have a corrosive effect on gameplay.

-DoK

All so very true Dok, but how is an HO shot artifically higher of a percentage shot on a 700 mph crossing merge ? Its the "artificial" than I don't understand.

What I was trying to get across before, is the typical HO freak that we have here in AH, can only do that. They never seem to think about what is "beyond", after the HO attempt. Its all or nothing in their book ... that is why I stated before that 8 out of 10 times, they are dispatched within 1 to 2 turns. This is not being at a disadvantage from my seat ... it means another easy pelt on the wall.

Also, HOs are prevelant due to the fact that one can re-plane immediately after a failed attempt. They are more than happy to get the 1 kill with a 50% chance of survival. They care less about landing kills.

Twas not the case in RL, so with that, HOs were not anywhere near the norm as we see in the MA.

octospider0 · « **Reply #35 on:** August 11, 2004, 03:30:31 PM »

As a newer player to the MA I have to say that HO shots are quite a pain in the neck. Before I was asked to join a squad I was trying them often as I didnt know any better. After reading lots of posts about this matter, I realized that a HO shot is frowned apon and I wasnt very good at it anyway. After some study and talking to squadies, I now "try" to revearse on them by diving down and then rolling up and over. Works the majority of the time. I also find myself remembering those pilots that try this manuver frequently and storing that in memory. In my opinon, as a not so good pilot, it would seem that if I can reverse this manuver on most ppl then much more expierenced pilots should be able to own them very fast.
Maybe its an ego thing, but them coming at me for a HO I feel as though they are trying to make me fight them on their terms. I dont like that. I would much rather reverse and make them fight me on mine. Seems perfectily reasonable. hehe

SlapShot · « **Reply #36 on:** August 11, 2004, 03:37:37 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by octospider0
As a newer player to the MA I have to say that HO shots are quite a pain in the neck. Before I was asked to join a squad I was trying them often as I didnt know any better. After reading lots of posts about this matter, I realized that a HO shot is frowned apon and I wasnt very good at it anyway. After some study and talking to squadies, I now "try" to revearse on them by diving down and then rolling up and over. Works the majority of the time. I also find myself remembering those pilots that try this manuver frequently and storing that in memory. In my opinon, as a not so good pilot, it would seem that if I can reverse this manuver on most ppl then much more expierenced pilots should be able to own them very fast.
Maybe its an ego thing, but them coming at me for a HO I feel as though they are trying to make me fight them on their terms. I dont like that. I would much rather reverse and make them fight me on mine. Seems perfectily reasonable. hehe

Before I was asked to join a squad I was trying them often as I didnt know any better.

There ya have it ... most don't know better.

This man has seen the light ... albeit, someone showed him the light, nevertheless he has embraced the light.

WTG Octo ... you are on your way to bigger and better A2A engagements.

<>

DoKGonZo · « **Reply #37 on:** August 11, 2004, 03:42:59 PM »

Well, in real life a 700 mph merge is a lot harder to aim for. You don't have a little tracking thingy showing you were to line up a half mile out, you only have this little speck of a relection that suddenly becomes an enemy coming right at you. This is a compromise needed for an online arena.

And I think that because of the "way things work" in AH2 it's an awful lot easier to dump a huge burst of ammo in front of someone coming at you than to get hits in a proper tracking shot. Not that the gunnery model is necessarily wrong, but with a head-on you don't have to worry about warp delays (or ballistics or lead) where you would in a tracking shot. And that's where it starts to get technically artificial.

And, of course, your reason is just as valid. If you can gut-shoot someone 10 times better than you and get the kill half the time, why not? If you miss you can replane and try again in 5 minutes.

But, let me ask this hypothetical to really stir the pot: if head-on fighter kills were treated like manouever kills ... that is no perks ... would people do it as much?

Zazen13 · « **Reply #38 on:** August 11, 2004, 03:48:46 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by DoKGonZo

But, let me ask this hypothetical to really stir the pot: if head-on fighter kills were treated like manouever kills ... that is no perks ... would people do it as much?

It would still be prevalent. The, "Piss in your cornflakes", breed, the same that will resort to intentional rams would still do it.

Zazen

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #39 on:** August 11, 2004, 03:49:46 PM »

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Originally posted by DoKGonZo

But, let me ask this hypothetical to really stir the pot: if head-on fighter kills were treated like manouever kills ... that is no perks ... would people do it as much?

they would still do it, unless you scored a HO kill like you do a chute kill

Zazen13 · « **Reply #40 on:** August 11, 2004, 04:00:52 PM »

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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
they would still do it, unless you scored a HO kill like you do a chute kill

I think those that HO habitually are not motivated by scoring. I think they are the types that up with one primary objective - End the mission of at least 1 enemy plane. They aren't concerned with any negative ramifications on their score, if they were they would not want to try for a Head-On as it is the most risky way of attacking an enemy aircraft. So, much so, that as stated by someone else in this thread, it effectively ends your mission 2/3rds of the time. This is alot better than those willing to accept a ram where the potential to end your mission is almost certain. Rams seem gimped right now, but remember how they were in AH1, often the Hoer and the rammer are the same animal. A rammer is just a Hoer with too much 'follow-thru' on his shot.

Zazen

SlapShot · « **Reply #41 on:** August 11, 2004, 04:13:30 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Well, in real life a 700 mph merge is a lot harder to aim for. You don't have a little tracking thingy showing you were to line up a half mile out, you only have this little speck of a relection that suddenly becomes an enemy coming right at you. This is a compromise needed for an online arena.

And I think that because of the "way things work" in AH2 it's an awful lot easier to dump a huge burst of ammo in front of someone coming at you than to get hits in a proper tracking shot. Not that the gunnery model is necessarily wrong, but with a head-on you don't have to worry about warp delays (or ballistics or lead) where you would in a tracking shot. And that's where it starts to get technically artificial.

And, of course, your reason is just as valid. If you can gut-shoot someone 10 times better than you and get the kill half the time, why not? If you miss you can replane and try again in 5 minutes.

But, let me ask this hypothetical to really stir the pot: if head-on fighter kills were treated like manouever kills ... that is no perks ... would people do it as much?

Understand your "artificial" notion now and have to agree, but its all we got.

I don't really suffer from warps, so that is something that I don't need to deal with.

I'll tell ya what ... I suck at the HO and I suck from the direct 6 position when the plane is not silhouetted against the sky ... I find it very hard to see the the outline of the plane. Once you turn, thats when I got ya. I am much better at tracking and deflection shots than I am with the straight shot.

As far as the "Pot Stir" ... it might have some effect, but the whine would be deafening ...

DoKGonZo · « **Reply #42 on:** August 11, 2004, 04:30:31 PM »

Hmmm ... ramming ... yeah, I remember those days still.

Imagine if you could set things up so whoever didn't shoot survives a ramming. Heheh ... that'd be evil ... when you saw the HO'ers guns twinkling you just try to ram him and get the kill. If you're going to HO in that case you damn well better be good at it. Don't know if it's technically possible, but it'd sure be an interesting experiment in Pavlovian psychology.

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #43 on:** August 11, 2004, 04:32:31 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Zazen13
I think those that HO habitually are not motivated by scoring. I think they are the types that up with one primary objective - End the mission of at least 1 enemy plane. They aren't concerned with any negative ramifications on their score, if they were they would not want to try for a Head-On as it is the most risky way of attacking an enemy aircraft.

ummm Zaz, I think u misread my post/er reply I meant they wouldn't even get a kill message, as when you shoot a chute you get no kill message.. my bad if I mislead ya or anyone LOL, I meant it as if you shot a plane down with a HO, ( not talking deflection) say maybe with in 10 degrees of pure HO, then you receive no kill awarded...just trying to be humorous something I need to work on I guess..my humor that is

same with ramming if you both collie why award either one with a kill, reward both with a collision / death, not sure if that is doable though with net lag and such.........sometimes I think to much:)

Muddie · « **Reply #44 on:** August 11, 2004, 04:35:50 PM »

Good point. Maybe a solution would be to slow down the update rate on the range (not the intervals, but the frequency). That way the higher the closure rate, the less accurate the range estimate. Just a thought.

Quote

Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Well, in real life a 700 mph merge is a lot harder to aim for. You don't have a little tracking thingy showing you were to line up a half mile out, you only have this little speck of a relection that suddenly becomes an enemy coming right at you. This is a compromise needed for an online arena.

And I think that because of the "way things work" in AH2 it's an awful lot easier to dump a huge burst of ammo in front of someone coming at you than to get hits in a proper tracking shot. Not that the gunnery model is necessarily wrong, but with a head-on you don't have to worry about warp delays (or ballistics or lead) where you would in a tracking shot. And that's where it starts to get technically artificial.

And, of course, your reason is just as valid. If you can gut-shoot someone 10 times better than you and get the kill half the time, why not? If you miss you can replane and try again in 5 minutes.

But, let me ask this hypothetical to really stir the pot: if head-on fighter kills were treated like manouever kills ... that is no perks ... would people do it as much?