Author Topic: The headon  (Read 1302 times)

Offline FiLtH

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The headon
« on: August 11, 2004, 02:15:20 AM »
Why is it so many people in here just go up and come back down headon when the other plane still has the e to nose on him and return fire? You know..the way 70% of the folks in here E fight. Ive seen alot of guys e fight in the past and they knew how to milk a guy before committing.  Guys like Drano and TC.

The way it is now...
  30% of the time I kill him, 30% we kill eachother and 30% of the time he kills me. Seems like a poor way to fly.  If the guy would feint like he's coming back down, and go back up, the guy below would be tail up when he truly attacked, and no risk of getting hit.

~AoM~

Offline Cooley

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The headon
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2004, 03:09:24 AM »
They misjudged thier opponents E when they went up in the first place, not alot of options at the top unless they still have enough juice to wiggle away from inevitable Vertical HO ?
Cooleyof 367th

Offline Redd

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The headon
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2004, 04:03:17 AM »
Because it takes a bit more patience and timing doesn't it , seems most folks just want charge in there guns blazing as quick as possible.

The art of E-Fighting seems almost lost to boring Bnzzzz and constant HO's doesnt it....shame.
I come from a land downunder

Offline TalonX

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HO
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2004, 08:34:32 AM »
What Redd said.......

I am S L O W L Y improving my ACM's.......I was (and remain) a turn fighter at heart I suppose, (Spit V) but I am improving my BnZ skills (P-51D, FW-190)

What is the first most noticeable difference?    T I M E

Frankly, it takes more time to set up, execute, extend, re-enter, than to blaze into a turn fight.

As my patience grows, my K/D is improving.  

Anyway, I think it is the lack of patience that drives the HO you describe.....as well as misjudging the "rope"......   When I drag someone up, I find a climb that allows me unlimited climb and watch for the other guy to start to fall off...that's when I turn down....if you do it sooner, you end up in the HO.
-TalonX

Forgotten, but back in the game.  :)

Offline mars01

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The headon
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2004, 09:40:29 AM »
Talon is right.  Some don't have the patience and others don't have the skills to do anything else.

Most people HO because they know they are going to lose any other way.  Until they get some skills they will live by the HO.

Offline XtrmeJ

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The headon
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2004, 09:41:47 AM »
I find it most ammusing when your heading at a con for a merge and he starts firing wildly from 800 well until after he's passed  you. Fun to dodge, look back and still hear/see his guns still blazing.

"Damn missed! Almost had him, I'll try again."

Offline SlapShot

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The headon
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2004, 09:44:43 AM »
Until they get some skills they will live by the HO.

Thats a Catch 22 right there.

If they continue to HO, then won't aquire skills.
SlapShot - Blue Knights

Guppy: "The only risk we take is the fight, and since no one really dies, the reward is the fight."

Offline SlapShot

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Re: The headon
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2004, 09:50:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by FiLtH
Why is it so many people in here just go up and come back down headon when the other plane still has the e to nose on him and return fire? You know..the way 70% of the folks in here E fight. Ive seen alot of guys e fight in the past and they knew how to milk a guy before committing.  Guys like Drano and TC.

The way it is now...
  30% of the time I kill him, 30% we kill eachother and 30% of the time he kills me. Seems like a poor way to fly.  If the guy would feint like he's coming back down, and go back up, the guy below would be tail up when he truly attacked, and no risk of getting hit.


30% of the time I kill him ... means 1/3rd of the time you are doing it right.

30% we kill each other - 30% of the time he kills me ... means 2/3rds of the time you aren't doing it right.

For the 2/3rds ... try this ... If in the zoom, you look back and the guys is still with you (closing or maintaining) try to switch over to a spiral climb. This will cause the guy to have to turn to adjust for a guns solution and many times will cause them to stall quicker if they make the adjustment too rapidly. Most times it will get you the kill, but at the least it will prevent you from getting killed.
SlapShot - Blue Knights

Guppy: "The only risk we take is the fight, and since no one really dies, the reward is the fight."

Offline Zazen13

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The headon
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2004, 10:06:56 AM »
I know most don't think much of E fighting, to some the only 'real' fighting is stall-fighting. But take it from somene who has E Fighting down to a science from a decade of practicing it in various planes. It takes ALOT of patience and discipline to do well. Alot of people are flying E fighters simply because they are fast and the MA tends to favor fast planes in terms of survivability. These people have little or no actual E fighting experience, but come from the turnfighting/stallfighting background, 99% start off learning. They tend to misperceive E fighting as simply Boom n' Zoom, it actually includes simple Boom n' Zoom but also so much more.

A stallfight or turnfight is known universally as an angles fight. The goal is to achieve an angle as quickly as possible on your enemy for a gunnery solution. The loss of E consideration, or conversely, the bleeding of the enemie's E is of secondary importance. So, what you have is people flying E fighters, who engage, usually with altitude, who are approaching the fight from an angles perspective. The end result being them pulling for an angle (whether vertically through an oblique manuever or laterally) for a shot with little regard for relative E states.

It takes ALOT of practice, timing, patience, discipline, tactical awareness, situational awareness and especially gunnery to be a successfull E fighter tactician. It will take these people perhaps years to get very good at judging relative E states and tactics to maximize their own E efficiency while forcing his adversary into manuevers which waste his E. Most people in the MA perform every manuever as if it were a 'balls to the wall' pull lead for the shot situation. Very few people actually 'work' the kill with manuevers that are designed solely to extenuate your E advantage and/or to negate/reverse the enemy's E state advantage with no 'short-term' regard for gaining an angle (any angle, HO or otherwise) for a shooting opportunity.

The result of this ecclectic blend of E fighter planes and angles fighter mentality is alot of HO's.

Zazen
« Last Edit: August 11, 2004, 10:35:07 AM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline dedalos

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The headon
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2004, 10:13:14 AM »
Many reasons.

Sometimes I will go up not knowing you were following.  Once at the top, not mach I can do.  the nose will point down by itself.

Sometimes I blow by a SpitV in a 38 and slowly pull up, eventualy going vertical, only to see the spit fire up his rocket boosters and close in on me.  Again, not many choices there either.

Sometimes, I will miss judge your e.

I am sure there are many other reasons.  Istead of complaining about the guy that commited himself to going vertical and questions his skills, why dont you take a look at what you are doing.  The guy that stalled at the top does not have many choices.  He will come down nose first.  What are you doing going up to him Head On?  Is there something else you could do maybe?  The way you describe it,

"Why is it so many people in here just go up and come back down headon when the other plane still has the e to nose on him and return fire? You know..the way 70% of the folks in here E fight. . . . . .The way it is now...
30% of the time I kill him, 30% we kill eachother and 30% of the time he kills me. Seems like a poor way to fly"

sounds like you are initiating the HO after someone made a mistake and missjudged your e.  Yes it is a poor way to fly, for both of us.

<>
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Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline TequilaChaser

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The headon
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2004, 10:30:51 AM »
I concur with Redd, Talon, Slap, and Zazen...........most go for the quick kill all be it HO or anything close........noone ( most anyway) wants to learn how to work over their opponent, don't have the patience, and do not even care about learning how too.......

you hear the whine from both sides , HO is a valid tactic or HO is childs play and BS"

I would rather work by maneuvering and earn the victory outright then take a cheapshot with a HO, unless I find myself quickly outnumbered or the opponent starts firing HO and I misjudged and don't think I can clear his guns in time........then I will return a few burst,

Also, I think with the new hit resolution in AH2, you have more pixils to hit in the 12 oclock position than you do in the 6 oclock position,  meaning HO's are easier to land now more than ever.

and with the collision model soon to be fixed in next patch ( find thread in bug forum) maybe the increased HOing may subside some.


It is the most rewarding when you encounter an opponent that flys for an angles advantage and steers away from HO's........wether they E fight, turn fight, or BnZ.........
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Zazen13

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The headon
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2004, 10:40:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by TequilaChaser
It is the most rewarding when you encounter an opponent that flys for an angles advantage and steers away from HO's........wether they E fight, turn fight, or BnZ.........


Unfortunately, this is becoming an ever-increasing rarity. Conditioned by the aformentioned people who will HO at each and every opportunity, most who realize they are against one of these types will sqeeze off a burst themselves. It's strictly a defensive reaction, but nothing dissuades a Ho'er like gettting beat at his own game on the first pass through superior gunnery, having his radiator popped or getting a pilot wound.

Zazen
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Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
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Offline Grits

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The headon
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2004, 10:47:58 AM »
I love E fighting, I love turn and burn too, depends on my mood which I will do. My biggest thrill in AH right now is pulling off a good Rope-a-dope. My best one (which I didnt film of course) I was in a 190A-5 with 3 Spit V's chasing me. I roped them, came  over the top, and got all three of them on the way down because they lined up really nice and straight for me. :)

The second best thrill for me in AH is being the 1 in a 2-3 v1 and bleeding the others down and killing them one at a time. More than 3 v 1 and I'm in trouble, but I still stay and fight.

Offline mars01

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The headon
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2004, 10:52:44 AM »
Gimme a break Zazen,

This is not some art that take 10 years to become skilled at.  It takes practice, yes but most of all it takes fighting and dieing, trying differnt tactics and perfecting the ones that work.

People will attain the skills if they drop their vulch, ho crutches and start to fight and learn.  Anyone can do it and it does not take that long to become compettive.


BTW If you pat yourself on the back any harder your going to break your arm:D. lolh

Grits I'm with ya 100%

Offline FiLtH

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The headon
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2004, 10:56:19 AM »
Good replies!

    Zazen I think you nailed it when you talk of both worlds converging...the tnb and the energy guy. It looks to me if you pit a tnb guy who guards his E well, but is at a disadvantage in alt, against a guy who energy fights, and maybe not as good as he could, the inevitable outcome is one guy stalling out above and nosing down on the lower guy, who has kept just enough reserve E to get his nose up on the guy above him. And the head on is born. Not deliberate..more out of neccessity from both players.

~AoM~