Author Topic: Ted Sampley of Swift Boats sez....  (Read 2254 times)

Offline Toad

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Ted Sampley of Swift Boats sez....
« Reply #90 on: August 15, 2004, 10:46:07 AM »
Saburo,

Get a copy of A Better War by Lewis Sorley (Amazon has it).

Very well researched AND documented, it will challenge what you've been told about how we "lost" VietNam.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline demaw1

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« Reply #91 on: August 16, 2004, 01:43:03 AM »
SABURO........

 You threw  politeness out the window way back when....

  You did not address anything I said,where did I say anything about bodycounts having anything to do with winning the war?

 We lost that war? Really so general Giap himself is a liar, wow the general of the armies of north vietnam himself lied about why they didnt surrender when they wanted to.

 Your post is so outlandish and nowhere is it based in fact. If johnson had followed Kennedys battle plan we would have won in less than a year with vietnam suffering maybe 1/8th the wounded and dead they ended up with.

That post is so far beyond the pale its unbelieveable, and from a rug rat that has no idea what vietnam was like or about.
 
 Ok, give me your other sources, Ill read them.

Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #92 on: August 16, 2004, 04:31:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by demaw1
SABURO........

 You threw  politeness out the window way back when....


Really, perhaps you show me. I didn't start with the personal attacks. I responded to yours. As a matter of fact I ignored your first negative personal comments. I decided not to respond further in our previous discussion as it is a waste of time. We are so far apart on the issues. At best your position is on wishful thinking.

Quote
Originally posted by demaw1
 You did not address anything I said,where did I say anything about bodycounts having anything to do with winning the war?


You inferred it in your argument. The "we won every battle" argument crowd uses the body count as their crutch for the war being winnable.

Quote
Originally posted by demaw1
We lost that war? Really so general Giap himself is a liar, wow the general of the armies of north vietnam himself lied about why they didnt surrender when they wanted to.


You're insinuating we didn't? Let's see here. We were instrumental in dividing Vietnam into a North and South in '54. There was to be a democratic vote of unification by the Vietnamese in '56. The US was against it knowing full well we'd lose.
When we finally withdrew, Vietnam was united into one. They reached their goal, we didn't. That is called LOSING by us and WINNING by Vietnam. Like it or not, that's history - no matter how you look at it.
Educate me on how we didn't lose that war.
When was Giap going to surrender? He didn't against the French, he didn't against us.
Wishful thinking of the what might of happened. We lost, that's what REALLY happened, no matter how you want to spin it. That's the problem of some that don't recognize history. Doomed to repeat it.

 
Quote
Originally posted by demaw1
Your post is so outlandish and nowhere is it based in fact. If johnson had followed Kennedys battle plan we would have won in less than a year with vietnam suffering maybe 1/8th the wounded and dead they ended up with.


Where do you come up with this nonsense? This wasn't a war of conquest where civillian casualties didn't matter. Only in that instance would we have won after wiping out most of their population. Then what? What value would Vietnam hold? Not enough natural sources to sustain an occupation. How would Vietnam be "won"? You think that the freedom of planting our flag in another country would be enough to constitute winning? Never mind the attacks our occupation soldiers would go through.


Quote
Originally posted by demaw1
That post is so far beyond the pale its unbelieveable, and from a rug rat that has no idea what vietnam was like or about.


Obviously, you don't. Rug rat now eh? Amazing, just amazing. BTW, you want to have a discussion with or without insults?
Just amazing your style of "discussing" an issue. You don't get your way you act like a big blubbering, whiny child. You've been the rug rat. You want to continue? I'll respond in kind (as I have).
 
Quote
Originally posted by demaw1
Ok, give me your other sources, Ill read them.


I'm going by memory going back over two decades ( I'm 42). How about you look up on your own. Choose some sites that don't agree with your opinion, maybe you'll learn something new (I doubt it though as you're set in your ways).
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #93 on: August 16, 2004, 04:35:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Saburo,

Get a copy of A Better War by Lewis Sorley (Amazon has it).

Very well researched AND documented, it will challenge what you've been told about how we "lost" VietNam.


Toad,
Thanks for the heads up on that book. I'll be looking for it. Unfortunetly too busy for the time being, though.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #94 on: August 16, 2004, 05:26:05 AM »
Vietnam!

One of my favourite subjects.  

Both of you are right.  The VC definately and you can make a case that the NVA were nationalist.  Ho Chi Minh fought the Japanese for the OSS in WWII.  It was agreed that Vietnam would be a free and independant country.  Mistake number one by Washington was in not keeping that promise.

After WWII the French put us on the spot by not following the allied agreement made during Yalta.  All conquered territories and former colonies would be freed or set on the path of independance.  Thus began the French Indochina War.  Keeping our word with Ho would have meant going to war with France.

Vietnam was divided into North (communist) and south (royalist) by the Paris Peace accords ending that war.  5 years later, at reunification election time, the communist were going to win the election hands down.  Ho Chi Minh had actually done something with his 5 years time.  The Royalist, Diem, played on the French Riveria, and south fractionalized into petty warlords fighting for territory.

We backed the warlords and Diem.  
The South Vietnamese government was a fiasco.  Mistake Number 2 by the civilian administration was in not straightening the South Vietnamese Government out.

Under the Kennedy administration and previous ones the war was fought mainly by covert means and Military Assistance to the South Veitnamese.  Hindsight is 20 -20.  We should have kept it at that.  We were winning.  Slowly but surely we were winning.

I have to go to work and will finish this up.  Good discussion guys.
Watch out though,  We ARE making the SAME mistakes in Iraq that we made in Vietnam.  I will explain why and how later.

Offline demaw1

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« Reply #95 on: August 16, 2004, 08:53:23 PM »
SUBAROS


   If you will remember subaros, a few threads back, I told you I had always treated you with respect and was wondering why all the name calling when I wasnt even talking to you.

 For your info I wasnt refuring to body counts as a won or lost thing..but as a stupid thing to do, be it for showing the country we were winning or for making sure we didnt kill to many of the enemy.When nixon became president and kissinger found out about the reason for body counts he said he never wanted to hear about them again. Also general giap did say everything I said he said.

  Now I have news for you, we didnt lose in vietnam, johnson administration and war protesters did . If we would have been given the ability  to fight from the begginning ,when I was in kindergarden,it would have been over by the time I was in 1 st grade.

 Crumpp is right, you can blame that war on France, you can blame so much on that stupid nation for so many things, but you wont cause you cant see evil if it is slaping you in the face. No to so many like you America is the evil one. Dont even try,you have to many post to deny what you think about America.

 BTW After America left 3 million cambodians died killed by communist...I cant wait to see how you twist that one, if you even respond.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2004, 08:57:01 PM by demaw1 »

Offline demaw1

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« Reply #96 on: August 16, 2004, 09:11:57 PM »
Crumpp I for one would like to read whatever you write ,agree or not ,so I hope you finish.


   thanks demaw.

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #97 on: August 16, 2004, 10:31:13 PM »
Quote
Now I have news for you, we didnt lose in vietnam, johnson administration and war protesters did .


Your absolutely right.  It is starting again in Iraq too.  Not due to Bush, he is actually been a great Commander -n- Chief. Certainly not due to Rumsfeld either.  If you have to place blame, then it rest's squarely on the Politics of the US Army and the media.

Facts are Bad News sells Newspapers, not "we are doing great but set backs can be expected".  This fuels the "fast food" culture of America who want a quick and easy victory.  Counter-Insurgency warfare is neither quick nor easy. The successful ones have taken decades to win and have been fought on the sly out of public view. The Media is creating the perception we are losing when in fact we are not.  

Right now, we are beginning to hear the cry of "more troops" in Iraq.  This is a bad thing.  Conventional troops are not trained for this type of warfare.  They are a broadsword designed to fight other large conventional forces.  They did outstanding against the Iraqi Army in the largest and fastest armored thrust the world has ever seen.

This type of warfare requires a careful application of force, an understanding of the culture, and of humanity in general.

Example:
In Afghanistan there was a grenade attack.  A little boy came up and tossed a grenade in the back of a parked Hilux Pick-up truck.  The US Soldiers bailed out and nobody was hurt.  The little boy was immediately detained.  Nobody yelled at him, it was obvious he was just as scared and shaken by the experience as the soldiers.  He was put in the back of another truck out of sight and given some candy and comfort.  When he came out, the little boy spotted the man who gave him the grenade and pointed him out.  He was immediately detained.  The little boy was then taken to his parents who were NOT happy he was involved in the violence.  They were extremely grateful that their child was protected; he was in the end, as all children are, innocent.  Some twisted adult gave him the grenade to "play a trick" on the Americans.

I was talking to a young soldier, a good kid who just returned from Fallujah.  They also experienced a young child throwing a grenade someone had given him in a crowded market.  Their company commander was killed when the grenade went off.  The little boy ran off into the crowd that quickly scattered as the entire company opened fire.  I asked the kid what they were shooting at, he didn't know, everybody was just scared and shooting at "the enemy" simply because the guy next to them was shooting. That is the correct reaction IF another unit attacks you.  After a few minutes, when no return fire was experienced, the order to cease-fire was given.  Everyone was scared and angry.  Their company commander had been a good officer and a good man.  

The average man living in Fallujah just wants to live his life in peace and keep his family safe.  He might not like the Americans but he is not picking up a gun to fight.  Basically he is sitting on the fence hoping not to be caught in the middle.  Now with US bullets flying through his living room, it won't take him long to decide the best course of action is to pick up a gun and stop them.  The insurgents won that engagement.  Not only did they kill a good man, but they helped to erode any popular support.

Large conventional forces unwittingly create insurgents just by the nature of their operations.   The cry for "More Troops" = MORE INSURGENTS = More fighting.  

Now the flipside is that most of the "insurgents" at this point are not Iraqi's.  They are other Arabs who have come to "fight the infidels".  Many of them are AQ or AQ wantabees.  Good thing for us, I would rather fight them in Iraq than in the United States.

Crumpp

Offline demaw1

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« Reply #98 on: August 16, 2004, 11:08:06 PM »
Crumpp.....

  I would need more explanation about politics of army before making up my mind on that one.Sadly I think I know what you mean.

  Not that it matters, but I put the blame on the media, and the left in this country.  How can any sane person not know that if we were not fighting in iraq right now, we would be fighting here,right here.

 Isreal is a fortress compared to America ,and America can never be safe, even if we had a 3 million man army stationed here.
Just to many places to hit.

 I agree bush has been a good cic,leting them fight with out hands tied, but I disagree on policy now. You are right about the military being wrong for mission now but what choice do we have?

 What I see that is the same as vietnam, is tied hands again, and pretending only a certain faction is the enemy. The biggest problem is Iran,she is sending the insurgents and weapons and money. Another harbour we cant hit. Holy city? mosque? hiding behind and in. Well they arent the first ones to do that.Fight and talk,fight and talk,dont shoot here or there,sound familar?

 I think bush knows in his heart what has to be done, but the pressure from the world, combined with the left,demos, and media , he just cant overcome it.

 I know we are not strong enough to hit  iran yet,but we are wasting time in iraq, I say, If we arnt going to kill badr ,take the others out, then It is time for our sons and daughters to come home.

Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #99 on: August 17, 2004, 02:28:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by demaw1
SUBAROS
   If you will remember subaros, a few threads back, I told you I had always treated you with respect and was wondering why all the name calling when I wasnt even talking to you.


I just checked back 17 pages of threads. Until this thread did I retaliate with name calling responding to yours. You're mistaken. Go ahead and prove me wrong. Sheesh, we can't even get our facts straight in such a simple matter of who insulted who. You expect us to come to an agreement on a complex issue such as Vietnam? Again, show me where I started with the name calling. You won't because you can't because I didn't.

 
Quote
Originally posted by demaw1
For your info I wasnt refuring to body counts as a won or lost thing..but as a stupid thing to do, be it for showing the country we were winning or for making sure we didnt kill to many of the enemy.When nixon became president and kissinger found out about the reason for body counts he said he never wanted to hear about them again. Also general giap did say everything I said he said.

  Now I have news for you, we didnt lose in vietnam, johnson administration and war protesters did . If we would have been given the ability  to fight from the begginning ,when I was in kindergarden,it would have been over by the time I was in 1 st grade.


What exactly do you mean when you refer to us as winning every battle? What criteria do you use?
How did we win Khe Sahn, for example?
Man, we're going around in circles here. Unless you're speaking for the Vietnamese, your statement of not losing the Vietnam War is false. We, the USA lost that War. We had no clear cut goal. We treated that country as a pawn in the big scheme of things. Most of the Vietnamese didn't want to be a part of it. They didn't want their country carved up into two.
LOL, it was the militarily conservative Johnson that gave in to many demands to increase our military presence in Vietnam. Yeah, his so called "experts" let him down. We agree on a lot in this area actually. Too bad, many that had the President's ear didn't know enough of Vietnam's history to offer an effective plan.

Quote
Originally posted by demaw1
Crumpp is right, you can blame that war on France, you can blame so much on that stupid nation for so many things, but you wont cause you cant see evil if it is slaping you in the face. No to so many like you America is the evil one. Dont even try,you have to many post to deny what you think about America.


No, we have to blame that war on us, no one else. We should of had the balls to not back France. We should of had the foresight to open diplomatic relations with Vietnam rather than trying to divide it. We dropped the ball big time.
There you go again, somehow I hate America? Is that what you're insinuating? If so, how about you get a grip on reality? You're lost.

 
Quote
Originally posted by demaw1
BTW After America left 3 million cambodians died killed by communist...I cant wait to see how you twist that one, if you even respond.


Are we talking about the Khmer Rouge led by Pol Pot that massacred over a million of its own Cambodian citizens 75-79. The Vietnamese that went in there to depose his regime in '79?
Twist it?
How in the world does this prove we didn't lose the Vietnam War?
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline demaw1

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« Reply #100 on: August 17, 2004, 07:13:16 PM »
It is on page 13, under demaw thread.

 Yours was said in a very sardonic way,mt did his normal,and rpm went with standard put down words. Because it was very personal to me[ for 2 reasons,] and I found out it had already started, I became very up set. Now as to what I would do to a soldier, returning with a different view. I would do the same for that soldier as any other. If you noticed, I retracted rpm from post after I saw what he said he would do if he was there.

Offline rpm

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« Reply #101 on: August 17, 2004, 07:32:28 PM »
Wow, still fighting over Vietnam guys? C'mon get  over it. It was not our finest hour, but it is past. I think every American is now capable of supporting the troops without supporting the reason they are fighting. Wherever that may be.

For instance, I would not support an invasion of Argentina. But, I would hope the troops kicked bellybutton doing it and little or no casualties were incurred.
My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.
Stay thirsty my friends.

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #102 on: August 17, 2004, 08:27:16 PM »
Quote
I think every American is now capable of supporting the troops without supporting the reason they are fighting. Wherever that may be.


Yes, but you tread a fine line.  If you going to go to war, then go to war.  

We tend to think of every past conflict as a series of events leading to an inevitable end.  In fact that is not case.  The path ahead is muddy and confusing.  Nothing is certain and victory only occurs because men have the will to risk their futures for a cause they believe is just.  That's why you went to war in first place.  One wins a war by simply having more will than the enemy to win it in the end.  Never forget life does not occur in a vacuum.  The majority of Americans supported Bush going to war in Iraq before we went.  Just as in the Vietnam War the majority of Americans supported us entering that conflict.  AQ is counting on Vietnams shadow to influence our will to fight.

Casting doubt about the reasons for going to war AFTER the fact and during the conflict only erodes the will to fight and lends heart to the enemy.  How Americans feel about the cause directly effects the troops who are putting their lives on the line for that cause.  It makes the conflict longer.  Argue about the reasons for going to war during the peace afterwards.  If we lose, then all that has been accomplished is young lives snuffed out and lost for no good reason.

Crumpp

Offline Toad

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« Reply #103 on: August 17, 2004, 08:29:51 PM »
Well Said, Mr. Crumpp.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline demaw1

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« Reply #104 on: August 17, 2004, 09:12:17 PM »
Well said Crumpp

  That is why I fight it so hard, if there is a reason to put the whole gov. in jail .....after the war is over great do it. All the bellyachein now is hurting them over there,just read a couple of letters being sent home if you have access.