ENY disablements

[DoKGonZo]

Originally posted by SlapShot
You can do all you want to try to improve the "team" play concept, but if the team players DON'T want to play together, then nothing you do can force them to and you still haven't accomplished anything. You say ... "Well thats their tough luck". Well, we already have a gameplay concept (very simplistic) and disorganization still runs rampant and there is still an imbalance, so making the gameplay concept more complex would hardly solve the problem IMO.

...

True enough.

But remember in baseball you have everyone playing the same "game," you have officials there to make sure no one does stuff they shouldn't, and if the team wins you get very rich. So in our little slice of nirvana, we have to encourage team play more.


An ez-mission console is one idea we bandied about that would simplify things and enhance gameplay. Hell, you could get perks just for setting up a mission and yelling at people not to go 5:1 on the first bogey they see. And that'd help the outnumbered side a TON!

Spreading out airfield layouts and having bigger fields require more troops to capture them doesn't make the "rules" any harder to understand really. It just gets harder to do and requires some thought and cooperation.

Adding in a low-alt bomb sight for attack bombers only doesn't make the game any more complex, it adds a more effective way to attack ground targets - making the current Jabo fetish less appealing. Likewise increasing the lethality of the Sturmi and Hurri IID against armor doesn't add any complexity to the existing game beyond that of making a new specialty available for people to master.


Now ... notice the theme that is consistent here. All these ideas we're agreeing on (more or less) all *add* things - more interesting targets, more air-to-ground functionality, easier to create missions. No one is being "punished" - nothing is being taken away. And we all (more or less) agree that the gameplay and tenor of the MA would improve as a result.


And one more thing ... and this is purely my opinion ... if players are playing like 'tards and doing stuff that you step back and go "booo-ring" ... it's because they're bored. This isn't a knock on the game at all. They've just absorbed as much as they need to be "successful" and have settled into a comfort zone. Even if its dull and repetetive - they get their chuckle out of it. That's human nature.

If you take things away ... and threaten that comfort zone ... well, we all saw how people behaved. But when you add things, ahhhh, that's different - now they're challenged by a new toy, a new feature. I've always maintained that online gamers are the most cunning muthers on the planet - you just have to keep throwing new challenges at them.

(And that's one reason I like RPS ... it gives you 3 or 4 very different feels to the game spread out over a couple weeks. You can't capture fields in 1940 like you can in 1944.)

Again ... that's just my opinion.

[Grimm]

A consern for level bombers as I remember it was this.

I make a good drop same from 15K and I take down a bunch of toolsheds and stuff,  But then about 16 seconds later,  I get hit by a Flak shell that does the pilot in.    Now the damage done is erased.  

Perhaps if it was tied to Altidude and Time.   If you died under a 10 second timer, and you are still under 200ft it doesnt count.   This would pretty much mean Auger ins and kamakazis.

[SlapShot]

Dok ... I am with ya on all you wrote, I am just playing a little devil's advocate here, but I think that those of us who would embrace these changes, are the minority.

From what I have witnessed over the past 2+ years is that when things become harder (I can use complex too ... right ?) around here, people get real upset too.

The point that I am trying to make is that if the community (as a whole) does not change their attitude and outlook, all the little bonuses created to entice cooperation won't have a positive effect until they do change.

The AH community needs to change ... and I believe that this one action (ENY) and this single thread just may accomplish that ... I am hoping.

I have to say that your participation is the wind on the embers to keep the flame going ... keep it up.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by SlapShot
Dok ... I am with ya on all you wrote, I am just playing a little devil's advocate here, but I think that those of us who would embrace these changes, are the minority.

From what I have witnessed over the past 2+ years is that when things become harder (I can use complex too ... right ?) around here, people get real upset too.

The point that I am trying to make is that if the community (as a whole) does not change their attitude and outlook, all the little bonuses created to entice cooperation won't have a positive effect until they do change.

The AH community needs to change ... and I believe that this one action (ENY) and this single thread just may accomplish that ... I am hoping.

I have to say that your participation is the wind on the embers to keep the flame going ... keep it up.

Hey, on the bright side, they complained a lot less when AH II made bases a lot harder to capture than they have when the ENY balance mechanism took their favorite ride.

Meaning, at the very least, if there was a system in place that rewarded improved community function, they would not have the "you took something from me that I paid for and I want it back or I'll quit" reason to whine.

As Dok said, the key is to make the change positive and make them WANT it. That is the very best you can do. If they don't want things to get better, nothing will. At least if you try the positive approach, no one will pay the price for the people who don't care if it gets better.

[DoKGonZo]

Originally posted by SlapShot
Dok ... I am with ya on all you wrote, I am just playing a little devil's advocate here, but I think that those of us who would embrace these changes, are the minority.

OK ... I can grasp that ... despite the rampant dweebery I tend to have higher expectations of the rank and file.


So all that means is that changes should be gradually put in place. Some are easy. Start with increase armor penetration for Stumi's and Hurri IID's (just for instance). You announce that in the next patch and odds are pretty good that some people will start popping GV's in 'em (I know I will). The GV fetishists will whine, but the novelty will wear off. But I would predict that field captures would now feature one or two tank-busters in the mix.

And mass-GV attacks will now require ... *gasp* ... fighter cover! Oh no, Mr. Bill! Which can be a nice source of kills on slow-moving attack planes.


So next maybe you implement the EZ-Mission console - to quickly put together TIME-CONSTRAINED field capture (and re-take) and defense missions. Maybe even limit these to allow only 15 people to join any one EZ-Mission. Announce a major perk bonus for people leading, and a smaller one for those participating in, such missions and I would predict that mission use at least increases. Add in the perk discount for missions when outnumbered and I would expect that people would defend in mission packages. Given a choice between trying to up in a Spit while being vultched and likely dying, and flying with a dozen guys from a sector away in dirt cheap C-Hogs with a perk bonus for anything you kill, which makes more sense?

So maybe next you add in the low-level tactical bomb site for A20's, Mosi, B26 (as singles), Avengers, Stukas, and Sturmis. When people read in the patch notes that there's a new tac sight for attack planes which will let them carry heavy ord and get be able to bomb with some accuracy, some (obviously not all) will try it. And they'll discover the fun of attack bombers. Now The Horde has tank-busters and attack bombers mixed in - it is actually *stronger* in ground-to-air than ever before ... but weaker in air-to-air. Meaning the fighters need to spend time protecting the strike ships. Which is what should be happening.

Will everyone change? No. But enough people will gobble up the new features and toys to slowwwwwwwly turn the ship.


Maybe also start to filter in some other host-level changes along the way. Like it needs 3 sticks of troops for a major field, 2 for medium, 1 for minor to capture.


But overall I think we're heading the right way. People always respond better to being given more ... even if they have to work a little harder because of it.

    -DoK

Oh ... PS ... Dux is building the SE Asia terrain as we speak ... from Mandalay to Singapore to Saigon. So Rangoon should get announced before month's end.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Dok is right, and besides, it could not be done all at once, not even close. Unless you want to wait 6 months for it to happen.

And I still think it would go over far better than what we have, and the effects would last longer and do more good.

Back to some of the truisms you posted earlier SlapShot, if all the ENY based balance mechanism does is somewhat even the numbers for a short period of time, it will not have solved the root of the problem. Like a band aid on a sucking chest wound. At least it won't bleed to death as quick.

[peterg2]

Originally posted by SlapShot

The AH community needs to change ... and I believe that this one action (ENY) and this single thread just may accomplish that ... I am hoping.

Slap, the ENY may or may not change the community. I tend to think that it may just make the game more complicated. And over the last 2 years the game has become a lot more complicated with a lot more work and a lot less fun, at least for me. A lot of people embrace the challenge of the changes, some I have and some I have not, but I think the majority might be happy with less change.

With a more complicated game, there is less time and energy (for me anyway) to fraternize with others, join forces, and plan missions. With the new flight models, new terrain objects, more difficult field takeovers, smaller hit bounding boxes, and new machine requirements, I'm just having a tougher time flying and in general, getting less enjoyment from the game. That may be true with others. And if people are struggling with the game, they may have less of a tendency to pay attention to strategy, planning missions, and cooperating in general.

I think there comes a point when a sim gets so complicated and realistic that just a small number of hardcore pilots continue on. If anyone's ever tried to keep up with Falcon4 and all of the addons and upgrades, they know what I mean. Hardly anyone gets together to play Falcon4 anymore. And Falcon is still a great game, but you need a 6 month full time training program to fly it now.

[Westy]

Grimm, IMO a "fix" should not count against those who die or auger after being damaged or shot down on the run.  The problem was (is!) intentional suiciders who auger within seconds of releasing. And heavy bombers doing the Stuka thing.

 IMO part of the "fix" should effect those who auger or ALT F4 within XXX seconds (I think 5-10 after release is plenty) of dropping thier ordinance.  

 Along with this were suggestions on limiting the angle for release (heavy bonbers diving), setting an arming altitude/timer so that the simpleton auger-nuts had to release higher (less accurate). Also suggested was an idea for those who augered without damage 30 seconds after release was to limit thier ordinance choices for subsequent runs and/ or lock thier spawning from the base they'd flown thier suicide run from for 10 minutes or more.  

 Sure this *may* penalise a "newby" but IMO they'll learn to get better much faster. And IMO newbs augering within seconds of release are a small fraction in comparison to those who deliberately perform the suicide-jabo acts.

 This however is a different subject altogether from fixing the horde issue.  Also the ideas run contrary to Dok's where as it penalises players by removing options instead of offering them something else as an incentive to curb behavior.

[Zanth]

I been popping a screen shot before I log past few mornings and evenings.  System sure seems to be working.  (But yeah it's early yet)   SO maybe a wait and see attitude is better before making any more adjustments?

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Dok is right, and besides, it could not be done all at once, not even close. Unless you want to wait 6 months for it to happen.

And I still think it would go over far better than what we have, and the effects would last longer and do more good.

Back to some of the truisms you posted earlier SlapShot, if all the ENY based balance mechanism does is somewhat even the numbers for a short period of time, it will not have solved the root of the problem. Like a band aid on a sucking chest wound. At least it won't bleed to death as quick.

Hey .. I am all for the ideas that Dok is bringing forward, but at the same time, I still think the underlying notion of the ENY mechanism is still valid and should not be dismantled. Yes, at this point it is a bandaid over the sucking chest wound, but with some tweaking, I think that it could be more than just a bandaid. It could add to the realism and also foster cooperation.

The idea of adding to the ENY disabler, that only front line bases in enemy territory are effected, isn't really taking away anything it just makes things harder.

Now, if changes are introduced, like the ones that Dok has mentioned, which would require some real devestation in order to capture a base, once the captured front line base (in enemy territory) is completely regened, then all planes are available again. In otherwords, add field regen to ENY disablement.

This would then introduce the need to fly supplies (C-47/M3 groups) into these captured bases to try and get the field healed to get the ENY planes faster. Just like we use to do to get the fuel back up at a captured-porked base.

I think that this would also add to the "realism" factor. Did captured front line bases in enemy territory in WW II automatically have all planes available to them immediately after capture ? ... I don't think so. It took time to rebuild them, after destruction, and then they moved equiptment in.

The ENY disabler, in its raw form, right now, is harsh in my opinion, but it can be built on and really add to the gameplay aspect of AH. We still must remember, that if sides are even, then the ENY disabler is shut off and everything is as it was.

[Swager]

Westy,

Nice ideas!

I very seldom fly the high ENY aircraft, so the new patch wont bother me.

I only get bothered when my country's back is up against the wall and all I see are enemy LA7s, N1K2s, and Spits above me.  That's when I log off.

There should be no PERKS for a reset.  Just the fact that a country got the reset should be reward enough.  

Now if perk points could be traded in for ballcaps, shirts, coffee mugs, then it would be worth something to me.

[SlapShot]

Slap, the ENY may or may not change the community.

What I was really getting at was not the actual change itself, but the buzz and dialog that it has generated.

Like Virgil said, this could be one of the single most important threads/dialog that Aces High has ever had to offer.

Hey Capt'n ... what is your in game ID ?

[DREDIOCK]

And Im a Knight, Who doesn't care effected planes are available or not. But I while perhaps not in as strong terms agree about this new system.
Primarily because I do not think its going to change things much.
While a bit early to say "HA Told ya so"(I'll just bide my time on that one)
It is interesting to note that Rooks with the new system still managed to put up over 200 people on Sunday. The primary reason for their lack of success had more to do with the lack of troop availability then plane type

As for those that switch for the reset perks. I dont know how the perk system works but perhaps any perks you earn should be country specific. That is say your a Knight and have 2,000 perks and you switch to Bish. Those 2,000 perks stay with the knights until you return and any Bish perks you earn stay with the Bish.
Also I think that all new accounts should start off with say 500 perks. That is enough to allow anyone new to the game to give the perk rides a whirl so they can a taste of what they are trying to earn perks for.
Hmm Lets change my above idea a bit. Lets say you have 2,000 perks and switch to Bish.
You should be able to take 500 perks with you. That way you don't get penalized too much for switching.
Of coarse if you switch alot your account of perks for each country will build.

That being said
My Squad is primarily an attack squad. If faced with a lack of these plane choices we would simply choose a different plane that was available.
In fact as often as not we do that anyway.
We manage to routinely completely pork fields using nothing more then FWA5's with a single bomb each so its not like it cant be done. If its more ord you want, Try the FM2. W'e routinely do that also.
If its speed your after go with the Mossie. With a little practice you will find it can be more devastating to a field then the pony or P38. Or the Jug. Or better yet put a package of the two together and you will have one hell of a fearsome and devastating attack force.
And thats one of the reasons I dont think this system is going to work. Eventually people will start thinking again instead of complaining, then you all will get your acts together and figure that out and we are going to be right back where we started.
Not to mention that after a while alot of you are going to be getting pretty good in the damn things. And I personally would rather go up against a good P51D pilot then a Good Mossie pilot  Or a horde of ponies over a horde of Mossies any day.

I also do not like the idea of forcing people to change countries.
I know for myself its never gonna happen. I know some find that thinking silly, but to me loyalty means something.
  But then again Im not a "me" person I dont fly just for myself but for my country which is just an extended version of my team.
And as the saying goes "there is no "I" in "T-E-A-M"

Also I think the bombers should be exempt from the current system. And being on the receiving end of the horde on MANY occasions It is my honest opinion that the bombers aren't the primary problem, More of a minor inconvenience then anything even at worst.
I also think the 163's based near your HQ should also be exempt.
Even on the hoarding side as they simply lack the fuel mileage to travel very far anyway so to disallow them is pointless.

Originally posted by Pieper
OK guys....Im a rook, but that makes no difference, the new patch is crap. Look at it this way.....most of the times when a country has high numbers its because traitors have switched sides to be part of a reset. It dosent matter if they get the perks for it or not.....seen this too many times. In fact I bet lots of Bish and Knits that started this crap are guilty of it.

So far all I've seen the disabled planes effect is the number of people who say screw it all together and log off.

It hurts squads

Bish...Knits...If you were in an attack squad and had to sit in the tower and wait for your plane of choice to be enabled so you could stop an enemy push........how would you feel?

There is no way Im ever switching sides......although HiTech told me to as a solution on god channel........

I think its alot of BS.....

For Christ sakes! you cant even defend your HQ in a 163.....thought about that yet?

All this is doing is effecting dedicated squads....not the root of the problem....the country swaping furballers

[SlapShot]

As for those that switch for the reset perks. I dont know how the perk system works ...

Originally posted by hitech
You must be in country the same amount of time as the change country setting to recieve perks. It has always been that way. I.E. you have never been able to change sides just before a reset to get perks.

That setting used to be 12 hours it is now 6 hours.


HiTech

I also think the 163's based near your HQ should also be exempt.

Originally posted by hitech
As to the 163 and perk planes the 163 will definetly be excluded and im favoring the idea of all perks to be excluded from the eny system.


HiTech

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by SlapShot
Slap, the ENY may or may not change the community.

What I was really getting at was not the actual change itself, but the buzz and dialog that it has generated.

Like Virgil said, this could be one of the single most important threads/dialog that Aces High has ever had to offer.

Hey Capt'n ... what is your in game ID ?

It's in my signature. I'm Savage, formerly Savge in AW. I fly as a Rook with the 327th Steel Talons Fighter Squadron.