ENY disablements

[4510]

Originally posted by KaK3MAW
LIMITING plane set  because you have more numbers is only going to encourage more ganging.... Rooks could have 100 more players.. limmited to 109fe and spit1.. and be ganged by bish  and knights and be effectively outnumbered. I for one am lustily looking forward to exploit this arcade feature....
 BTW,,  do we get monthy fee decrease based on  lower percentage of totl plane set use?  we should.
KaK3

"that which doesn't kill you isn't dangerous enough"

Someone get a calendar and write this down....
I actually agree with KAK....

(Lawd I hope my mother doesn't find out)

[4510]

Well I have issues but it has nothing to do with  a single plane.  I can find something to fly.

This game was developed on a model.  The model had many facets.

First... 2 countries?  3 countries?  4 countries?

Decision was 3 countries.  Why?

Checks and balances.  2 countries.. one outnumbers the other... we have issues.

3 countries... one gets too far ahead the other two focus on the one.  This was chosen.

Why isn't this working?  One country significantly outnumbers the combined strength of the other two... repeatedly... day after day for large blocks of time?  ( I think not)  One country has more than any single other country...yes....but why don't the lesser two countries focus on the larger?

The 3 country check and balance worked well.. Weds and Thurs this week.

Next...

Gameplay success =

Two tracks here...

Individual... Perks for kills.. based on plane type... consecutive kills... kills per hop... on and on.. stats.  Lone wolf....

Country... Perks for RESET... land grab... bombing scores... resupplies... etc.  TEAM WORK.


Now we say.... the 3 country model doesn't work.  ( I suspect because the lesser two countries at any given time WON'T make it work)

That we need to put provisions in to "encourage" people to change sides.  Well.. let's see.. that violates the Country based portion of the game play model.  You don't garner team success which is ultimately RESET by switching sides to keep things even.  You don't engender cooperative interaction by  "encouraging" people or squads to change sides.  

So are we now saying that the country focused, land grab, RESET oriented game model is a failure?  It doesn't work?

We all should learn to use the game model...with the 3 country checks and balances to counter any overwhelming numbers.  It is a given that specific points in a day... even that might not be enough (RJO) but that isn't a reason to declare the whole game model broken.

This latest balancing effort contradicts the very underlying model of the game.  If we need to leave it in place.  Dump 3 countries, go to 2, dump land grab as reset and the country based organization and teamwork have no place in the game and lets go back to an Air to Air game play.

Hey wait... I LIKE that idea!

[Kev367th]

I can just see it now if HT perked LA7's and 51's - same complaints, different reasons.
I believe for a  while tonight the Knits were ENV limited, didn't see them complaining on CH200.
Whatever HT does people are gonna complain, hell I don't like the 75% fuel or no night situation, but thats the way it is.
To say you are being 'forced' into doing anything is absurd, you have the choice.
Remember also in the README ( if you read it ) HT says he is going to tweak the ENV values.
HT tried to encourage people to change sides using the perk modifier, frankly I think he will admit it didn't have the required effect.
Long run it is up to us to sort a lot of this stuff out e.g. when Rooks were outnumbered a lot of Bish squads (ours included) went Rook. When it swung back we went back, a lot didn't.

[Cobra412]

Denial of Service?  That is rather amusing considering when you paid to play you should have read the description of the game stating each side would work to reset the other by denying them of their bases and being awarded perk points.

Where was it stated that you would be denied of an aircraft due to variables that no one person can control completely.  I can control whether or not I get better to get perks to ride the perked ride I want.  I cannot however control getting the sides balanced so I can fly a particular airframe.  So now you tell me who has denial of service?

I commend HT for trying to find a fix for the imbalance issue but in the same respect I find that there may be more variables that need to come into account before any one country is limited of a particular plane or vehicle.  This game is dynamic and is not under any one persons control to change amount of personel, how and where the game is played.  Amount of enemy cons at the front lines of each base on each country should come into play not the overall number of personel in the game per country.  Though one side may have more numbers than the next two.  The two with the lower numbers can and have frequently in the past placed added resources to the front lines.  This in the end causing the true imbalance to even out or go into the two lower numbered countries favor.  Either way folks still are able to fight and though a map may not be reset folks still get a ton of action.

If this game is purely about the land grab and reset as some may think then why haven't folks complained about who is deserving of the perks in the event of a reset.  I've spent many hours in the past directly supporting the push to reset and in the end was only giving in return the enjoyment of playing.  Though my contributions were key in helping with the reset along with the amount of time I spent trying to help I was not awarded the perks unless I was online at the time of the reset.  Now how fair is that when someone who rarely spent time during that map cycle gets awarded when you don't?

I was a Bish once and yes I remember the hordes but it was war and I just upped from a base farther back.  If that wasn't an option and we were about to be reset I just logged off.  I was also on the side of the horde when Bish and Knights would press hard purely on the Rooks with little fighting between eachother. Or Rooks and Bish pressing on the Knights.  Those last examples are exactly what makes the current checks and balances incomplete.  The overall numbers isn't the deciding factor of who is really being outnumbered.  It's only the cover to a book that actually has a story inside which may or may not be similar to what you see on the front cover.  I give HTC a thumbs up for trying to get an insight on what the community thinks so they can help to fix the imbalance issues.

[Kev367th]

In Piepers original post he mentions side jumpers for reset.
Wouldn't this help deter this, as the more side jumpers the more the ENV disablement comes into play?

[Hyrax81st]

Originally posted by Kev367th
In Piepers original post he mentions side jumpers for reset.
Wouldn't this help deter this, as the more side jumpers the more the ENV disablement comes into play?

As I understand it, Pieper is saying that side-jumpers will muck it up for a country about to win reset by coming over and skewing the ENY for the country and still collect reset points. It hurts the country more than it hurts the side-jumpers.

[Cobra412]

Kev unfortunately you'll have those who lack the integrity to take the defeat and press on.  Instead they'll jump sides to gain something that they did not work for in the first place.  If they are that desperate for perks then let them jump sides.  Because in the end those who actually work for them will still have some sense of pride that though they didn't get any points for a reset they are acknowledge by their fellow country for a job well done.  For some that may not be enough but oh well.  

Unfortunately in this game we have had quite a few examples of folks with lack of integrity but some aren't worth the time to fight.  Instead that time could be used to find better ways to award the folks who actually can and do work for their points.  In the end those guys are only cheating themselves because no matter what short cuts they take they'll still be below par.

[thrila]

Nothing wrong with the mossie in the dive, you have to be careful not being agressive with the stick thats all. I can dive to 500mph without anything falling off with throttling back to make sure i don't overspeed.  The amount of times i've been called a cheat because the mossie "can't go that fast" hehe.

The mossie turns very well at high speed, this surprises many opponents.  It also turns well in general to get the single snapshot you need.   The mossie is fine for 1v1s too if you have a bit of alt  to play with (say 5k). Get fast and use it's large E bleed at high speed to force an overshoot or to gain angles.   You must be aggressive if you expect to get kills in the mossie.

[Murdr]

Originally posted by Hyrax81st
You might be a dweeb because you didn't read the question.

How many planes are available to you as an attack squad (that means "JABO" missions) if the ENY penalty pushes over 6 ? 10 ? 20 ?

Not the 80%/90% number you tossed out.

Oh great mister data and numbers guy who doesnt even know that reset perks are not awarded to players who are not in country for 12 hours.  I must have missed them memo where my replies are required to be framed as you or anyone else sees fit.  

I can read "and wait for your plane of choice to be enabled" just fine.  It must be your reading comprehention since I did not  state that the all remaining enabled planes were suitable for attack sorties.

[milnko]

Originally posted by Cobra412
I was a Bish once and yes I remember the hordes but it was war and I just upped from a base farther back.  If that wasn't an option and we were about to be reset I just logged off.  I was also on the side of the horde when Bish and Knights would press hard purely on the Rooks with little fighting between each other. Or Rooks and Bish pressing on the Knights.  Those last examples are exactly what makes the current checks and balances incomplete.

This is why we need four countries instead of three.

In Warbirds, it usally turned out that the purples and golds would fight each other as the reds and greens fought each other... or any combination of all four.

Never really understood why HT never carried over the 4 country setup.

[AKcurly]

Originally posted by DoKGonZo

What do you say to the person who only flies once a week with his friends, and they all fly a particular plane for historic reasons?

Is this person responsible for the odds being skewed night after night? No.

Is his showing up with his friends on a given night likely to completely unbalance the arena? No - not unless it's a 30-member squad - and even then it's a maybe.

So ... why should this person - who sets aside one evening a week of his time to play AH - who practices offline in his favorite plane so he can do well - why should he arrive in AH and find that he can't fly his plane because the country odds just happen to be in his favor at the time. Why is he being punished? Why should he be forced to fly a plane he doesn't want to at all? Why should he have to choose between flying with his friends and flying his favorite plane?

Because his choice of fun ruins the evening for the other two countries.  He can change countries and do all of the above.

In another thread I suggested an easy-to-implement alternative. Have the load-balancer only apply to captured fields. If you can advance without needed a huge numeric advantage, then you can fly whatever you want all over the map. But if you can't advance without The Horde, then once you're on foreign soil you lose the benefit of La-7's, etc. from those captured fields.

Implementation details, please.  It's always easy to suggest solutions based on qualitative ideas.  Turning those ideas into 0/1s can be very difficult.  Why do think TOD didn't happen instantly?

curly

[AKcurly]

Originally posted by Hyrax81st

The Rook proved this the other night when we were down to 3 bases and roared back to 17 in 2-3 hours.... with about 30 more players than the least #'d country.

Non-Rook squads are not hurt by Rook numbers but by their own inability to COOPERATE or depart from their (apparent) furball and runway vulching missions. THAT'S what is hurting non-Rook squads - not Rook numbers...

Fascinating isn't it, just 18 months or so ago, the rooks were on the other side of the numbers equation.  Did their superior cooperation solve the problem?  In a word, No.  They squealed like little piggies until some Bishop and Knight squads changed countries to relieve the problem.

The current large squads in Rookland lack the character (or whatever) to help manage the arena so that all countries can enjoy Aces High.

If the large squads in Rookland had helped balance the arena, then HTC wouldn't have been forced into  extreme measures.  Pity.

curly

[4510]

Originally posted by AKcurly
Fascinating isn't it, just 18 months or so ago, the rooks were on the other side of the numbers equation.  Did their superior cooperation solve the problem?  In a word, No.  They squealed like little piggies until some Bishop and Knight squads changed countries to relieve the problem.

The current large squads in Rookland lack the character (or whatever) to help manage the arena so that all countries can enjoy Aces High.

If the large squads in Rookland had helped balance the arena, then HTC wouldn't have been forced into  extreme measures.  Pity.

curly

Curly,

  First where are the squads that changed and rescued the Rooks?  If they were the squads of character you mention, why don't they just move back?  Leopards changed their spots?

Second why doesn't the 3 country model work to offset overwhelming numbers?  I'm not talking about Sunday evening.  Can't turn the arena on its ear because of one large singular event.  On the other evenings and times do the Rooks significantly outnumber the COMBINED strength of the Bish and Knits?  I flew all last week, every night, 4-6 hours each night, and I don't recall seeing the Rooks with such an advantage.  Perhaps more flyers than the Bish... or the Knits... when compared country to country but if the Bish and Knits numbers were combined not even close.  

The whole reason you have 3 countries is for play balance issues.  So are we saying that this model (which worked in another online flight sim that preceeded AH) suddenly no longer works?  Or is the real issue that the smaller two countries don't like the idea that 1 v 1 they don't generate the same numbers as the Rooks?  That they don't want to have to adjust their effort to fight primarily Rooks?

If we have to start forcing even numbers distribution then we don't need three countries.  Need only two and a forced numbers distribution to keep the sides even.  If we want to emphasis equal distribution of numbers with constant leveling (and how do you do that with the current requirement to stay in a country for 12 hours) then we need to do away with the 12 hour requirement, with country based land grab and arena resets.  They no longer matter because having equal sides is the priority and building of numbers to grab land to accomplish a reset is now not only frowned upon, but is legislated against.

We are talking changing the major fabric of AH's design.  Oh it isn't quite there yet because everyone can argue that these measures aren't that bad.  But what happens if they don't work?  What is next?

I think this whole idea is ill conceived and poorly executed.

[DoKGonZo]

Originally posted by AKcurly
Because his choice of fun ruins the evening for the other two countries.  He can change countries and do all of the above.

One person - all alone - is responsible for the odds being skewed? I think not.

What I think you meant is that squadrons lead to the imbalance. Which is partly true - for the squadrons which fly heavily every night and more or less dictate the odds. But the "weekend flyer" should not be penalized for this.

And making statements like the one you made only heighten the feeling of injustice because the people who only fly once a week know that their impact on the odds is minimal.

And so they take your advice and decide to change sides. What if that same night another squadron has decided to do the same thing and arrives at the same country they did? So they now went to all the hassle of telling everyone to move, getting everyone re-joined in the squad - and they still can't fly the plane they want. Through no fault of their own - and they followed your advice. Now you can explain to this squadron CO how fair the system is.

No matter how "big" the problem you're trying to fix here, it still all boils down to how it affects individual players.

Implementation details, please.  It's always easy to suggest solutions based on qualitative ideas.  Turning those ideas into 0/1s can be very difficult.  Why do think TOD didn't happen instantly?

This kind of high-handed response may work with others, but not with me. This could be implemented in a way which wouldn't require any terrain data structure changes at all. Such as:

- Create a global array called "homeFields."
- During terrain load on the host, walk the fields array or data structures and for each field set the associated value in homeFields[fieldNum] to 1, 2, or 3 depending on Rook, Bish, or Knit.
- Then when the balancer is determining plane availability at a field, add an and-if condition such as (player->countryNum != homeFields[currentPlayerField]) to test if the current field belonged originally to the player's country. If it did, the balancer behaves as it does now at that field.

That's what? Three lines. Even if the data structures or database is more complex, I can't see how adding this little piece of logic would take more than 10 lines and add 1 extra clause to an "if" statement somewhere - meaning no performance hit.

If the terrainfile or runtime structures already track which country a field belongs to at load-up, this gets even easier.


And I'll give you yet one more reason this system should be changed: and that is that it can be exploited. I'll even tell you how. Suppose you're a Rook CO who "always" has such superior odds (odds which I never seem to enjoy the nights I fly ... how odd?). Well, to get even with some of the morons who belittled me in the BBS for wanting to keep my squad night, I'd move my squad to their country and just log in and go AFK on my non-squad nights. Keep their odds jacked up so they can't get the good planes all damn night. Boo. Hoo.

     -DoK

[gofaster]

Originally posted by DoKGonZo
What do you say to the person who only flies once a week with his friends, and they all fly a particular plane for historic reasons?

Bring the Malcolm hood P-51B to Aces High!

Bring the Ki-44 to Aces High!

Bring the Ki-100 to Aces High!

Bring the D.502 to Aces High!