Range ICON = handicapped gameplay & spray

[Batmann]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:
The graphics we use, in no way give the same amount of information that real life <tm> does to estimate distances.

I agree it.  But human eyes can't estimate distances so precisely.  Range icon is too kind in my opinion.  


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Batmann <CO/JG68> from Tokyo, Japan
JG68 Briefing Room
"Anybody who is Japanese and likes German aircrafts
can't but get to like Ki-61."

[Swager]

This idea would give the experienced pilot the edge.  Newer pilots or pilots that do not fly as often would be at a disadvantage.  It will take time and effort to correctly determine con ranges and rate of closure.  This could frustrate a beginning pilot to a point where the sim is no longer enjoyable.

Basically the experienced killers would rack up kills and inexperienced beginners would be, well basically, wiped out.  Maybe not to that extreme, but it is something HT must think about.  For he is the one that has to create an atmosphere to keep this sim alive.  New people have to want to join and feel comfortable about flying.  Things are extremely tough the way it is.  Trust me, I know,  this is my first on-line flight sim and alot of you people are animals.

Sooner or later AH will have something like a HA where devices like range icons may be deleted.  In the MA, I believe these range icon should stay to help us less experienced pilots.  Remember, this is just MY lowly opinion.

Have a nice day!  

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Swager
-XO- II/JG2~Richthofen~
"Damn.....I can't believe I missed that shot!!!"
 
JG2 "Richthofen"

[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 03-31-2000).]

[skernsk]

I have to agree with Vermillion.

[Wanker]

Citabria, I agree 100% with you. But, alas, this would only have worked if HTC had implemented it at the beginning. If they tried that now, the whining would be heard round the world!  

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banana
308 (Polish) Squadron RAF "City of Cracow"
"On the whole, it is better to deserve honors and not have them than to have them and not deserve them"

[popeye]

"However the range indicator is an extremely good measure of the bandits closure and E state... thus it takes a mighty chunk of the
guesswork out of the fight artificially."

This is the key issue for me, rate of closure.  Being able to pick out the threats in a furball, and estimate the bad guy's E, is WAY more important to my success than knowing the range for shooting.  I'm not a RL pilot, so I don't know how "artificial" an aid the range icon is in determining rate of closure, but I think this is the critical issue for a balance between playability and realism.

Of all the suggestions I've seen for icons, this is what I'd like to try:

1.  Icon color would be user adjustable.  This allows everyone to have maximum icon visibility for their eyesight and monitor.

2.  Icons show only plane type for enemy and callsign/plane type for friendly.  No range indicators.

3. Icons start very transparent at long range, and get increasingly solid as range decreases.

4. Add a short delay before icons appear when switching views in the "instant" mode.

Not sure how difficult it would be to implement, or how CPU intensive it would be, but this is what I'd like to try for an "HA environment".

popeye

[sourkraut]

Have to agree with Verm and Swager on this one, with a twist. Range Icons are necessary until technology (and our gaming budgets) meet the Mark 1 Mod 0 Eyeball. Suggest:

1 - ID only for ranges beyond 2-3K
2 - Range Icon should be accurate to 100 feet increments.

Sour


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Sourkraut
JG-2 Richthofen

"Hey - someone has to be the target...."

 

[This message has been edited by sourkraut (edited 03-31-2000).]

[Citabria]

heres a pic of what I'm talking about.        


         


please note this is not a discusion related to identification part of the icon... only the range info

thanks      

p.s.
Lets just say I wish I had these kind of range Icons in real life.

I know if they do give this a trial period we will notice that we will be fighting against the actual airplane much more instead of the icon "above" it.  

cheers      

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CitabriAirbatiC

"There Is No Spoon"


[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 03-31-2000).]

[JimBear]

I am with you on this Citabria. Smaller plane type Icons coupled with a lack of radar ranging info would be a big plus in my book. As far as people needing info on the conn that is closing  from a distance, the warp that occurs at d4-3.9 is a pretty good giveaway (used this in the training arena with squad mates flying tagless)
It seems to me that anything that gives me a cleaner/less distracting view to my target is desireable.  My $.02 on the pile

JimBear

[Tern]

 

Originally posted by Citabria:
once inside d1 the range indicator is screaming at both the shooter and the target in 999. 899. 898. 795. 400... 355.. 200 etc

I'm old fashioned I guess.
I prefer to guess instead of know the way they really had to back then  

Well slap my hiny and call me ancient!    Dunno bout some of y'all, but my pony and 38's sights are customized and set for 250 yards.  That means, when a fighters wingtips touch each side of the target ring, I shoot his Ay-double-ess to pieces, (usually).  

Now, if HTC had a default gunsight that was worth a da... uh, dang, we wouldn't need to customize them to begin with.  

Range counters?  We don't need no steenkeeng range counters!  If there was a way to disable them, without losing the ID tag, I'd be flying without these 'range counters'.

Never used them in BrandWB's Historic Arena.  Of course, BrandWB's planes were identifiable to the trained eye out to 8k and that includes ASPECT changes.  Try that without tags in here.  


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Tern
"Live to Fly!  Fly to Fight!  Fight to Live!"

[Vermillion]

Citabra, I knew exactly what you meant  

Looking at your example I cant tell the difference between pics 2 & 3, and thats a still screenshot, let alone a moving graphic.

There is just not enough graphical detail to the models we use to show the difference you would notice in real life. Especially when you take a 90 degree field of view and squeeze it down to fit on our monitors, and thats suppose to represent our normal human vision.

I took a flight in a AT-6 Texan, a couple of summers ago, and me and the pilot talked about visual distances, and judging the range to other aircraft.

So thru out the flight we would pick out planes, and from my experience in WB's I would try to guess their distances. I almost universally was incorrect and judged them to be much closer than they actually were.

Why? Because I was seeing much more detail than I ever could in the games at the same distances.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[Sn1p3r]

I for one enjoy flying with my squad m8s in the training arena with no tags at all.  It is very difficult to judge closure rates.  It is also twice the fun (for me at least)

Perhaps Icons for friendlies and no icons for enemy and no distance markers at all?

-Sn1p3r

 

[Citabria]

good point vermilion

but do you think its worth trying?

my idea is focused around having the player pay  closer attention to the airplane instead of the icon.

I have faith that the majority of players in AH have the skill to do this.

It would be an insult to say they dont.



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CitabriAirbatiC

"There Is No Spoon"

[bloom25]

I like the idea.  My personal opinion is have the range indicator turn on at around 2.5k.  Unfortunately with the limits of computer screen technology, I can't tell whether someone is 800 yds or 300 yds away from me without the icon.  I think your idea would increase SA in the arena.  Coupled with the new smaller icons in 1.02, I think it would be great.

bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS

[This message has been edited by bloom25 (edited 03-31-2000).]

[Sorrow[S=A]]

I long ago desired a trial at having no distance markings on the Icon under 1k. As somebody who has played since beta .3 and started here as my FIRST flight sim this is one thing that annoys me the most. Keep range indicators over 1 thousand yards, under that your IN RANGE and get rid of them....

[Vermillion]

Is it worth trying? Sure, its worth trying, just not in the main.  

I guess my biggest reasons for opposition, is that such a system tends to favor those with better computer equipment (bigger monitors, higher resolutions, etc.) in the name of "realism", when like we have discussed already, realism is much higher fidelity.

I think my favorite "icon compromise" was the icon settings in the SL events in WB's. While I really despised the settings of the HA.

I just want a system that doesn't make a blind old man like me, even blinder  


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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"