Who broke the three Country model ? Why doesn't it work?

[4510]

Why doesn't the three country model work?

The reason three countries exist (vice two) is that two would be subject to uneven numbers distribution.  One side would end up with more people and there would be no effective manner to even the sides up.  Well at  least that was the thought process before such ideas as changing perk values based on numbers flying, changing plane availabilities based on numbers flying, instituting waiting periods between flights based on numbers flying.

So we have a three country model.  The idea being, if one country starts to get too much of a numbers edge, the other two countries look at the numbers, map, etc... and go....hmmmmm.  They stop fighting each other as much and focus on the country with the larger numbers.  When numbers once again start to level (as numbers ebb and flow all evening) they readjust once again to meet their needs.

However, what I am hearing is this doesn't work?  Why?  Does one country develop such large numbers that the COMBINED strength of the other two countries cannot counter it?  I mean, combined these two smaller countries are outnumbered by 60 or more or a regular, recurring basis?  (singular events like RJO on a Sunday are not valid reasons to change things)

Last week I didn't see the Rooks with numerical advantage over the combined strength of the Knits and Bish.  Never.  (I wasn't on Sunday)  So we have a situation where fliers in the other countries don't like it because their individual country doesn't match up 1 v 1 with the numerically superior one?  That the singular numerically disadvantaged country cannot solely pursue its own agenda without consideration of modifying its efforts to counter the larger country?  And for that we have a code change and limit the availability of airplanes?

So why DO we have three countries then?  Why do we need to keep three countries if cross leveling is going to be "encouraged" (read forced?)

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by 4510

So why DO we have three countries then?  Why do we need to keep three countries if cross leveling is going to be "encouraged" (read forced?)

Here`s a hint. HT wants it that way.

[4510]

Originally posted by Jackal1
Here`s a hint. HT wants it that way.

Really the bottom line isn't it Jackal?  It isn't about how a system should work or even what is right.  It is about who owns the system and everyone can accept it or suck it up.

Now that is a great business model !  

[Simaril]

At the risk of being repetitive, why should only we rooks have fun? Why should other countries be forced to deal with being significantly outnumbered 50% of the time? Why should HT do nothing if the 3 country system didn't autocorrect the way it has for several years?

And if you don't like flying higher ENY planes, why can't you just log on as a knight for a couple hours?

Sheesh.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by 4510
Really the bottom line isn't it Jackal?  It isn't about how a system should work or even what is right.  It is about who owns the system and everyone can accept it or suck it up.

Now that is a great business model !  

  Awwww I guess you could go build one and run it the way you think is right. Keep us updated on your progress.

[4510]

Originally posted by Simaril
At the risk of being repetitive, why should only we rooks have fun? Why should other countries be forced to deal with being significantly outnumbered 50% of the time? Why should HT do nothing if the 3 country system didn't autocorrect the way it has for several years?

And if you don't like flying higher ENY planes, why can't you just log on as a knight for a couple hours?

Sheesh.

Simaril,

How do you define being significantly outnumbered?  Are you talking your country vs the strongest country or are you talking the combined strength of two countries vice the strongest country?

I mean.. if on your front with the strongest country you are only facing 1/2 that countries assets (because the strongest country is trying to fight off two countries) are you finding you are at a disadvantage at that point?  Or is the problem that your country or whatever it wants to do, is not willing to make the decision to fight primarily only the large country?  That your country wants to be able to fight in any direction against either foe every night ?

The three country model wasn't setup for that purpose.  If the two smaller countries can't figure that out and use the model to their advantage why do we have to have an arena change to even sides?  Ask HiTech for system logs or something.  Lets see a posting of the total numbers of flyers on every hour.  Then add the two smallest together and see if that total is more or less than the largest.  (and we can logically assume, despite all the hype, that the largest country will not ALWAYS be the same country)   I suggest you will find, predominantly, that the combined strength of any two smaller countries will nearly equal or exceed the strength of the larger.

If that is the case the 3 country model is viable and will work.  Now if the flyers won't use the model.......why is that an arena problem?

[Hornet]

Soup,
You bring up a good point, and the 3 country model I always thought was the time-tested solution for an MA..HTC thought so to dropping to 3 after WB's.

But for whatever reason those few perks for a reset have completely disoriented the majority of folks online now.

Its tactics of cowardice...both the strongest and the 2nd strongest country focus on ganging the weakest, basically racing for a reset. Once the weak country is down to 3 fields there will be a final battle between the 1st and 2nd countries to determine reset.

Before that the weakest country faces two fronts bearing the brunt of both numerically superior foes.

[Shane]

Originally posted by 4510
Why doesn't the three country model work?

I understand very clearly how teh 3 country model is supposed to work...

as for the reason why it doesn't seem to work in AH is due to teh overall general dweebiness of many players (on all sides) who won't take the initiative in helping the model function properly, i.e., they're too timid to risk going up against what is often localized bad odds (on top of what may be global bad odds).

having said that, i generally fly for the underdog side and hit the big red dar bars where the green one is small or even non-existent.. but what do i know, i'm a "suicide dweeb" who doesn't care to rtb.

[4510]

Originally posted by Hornet
Soup,
You bring up a good point, and the 3 country model I always thought was the time-tested solution for an MA..HTC thought so to dropping to 3 after WB's.

But for whatever reason those few perks for a reset have completely disoriented the majority of folks online now.

The 2nd strongest country focuses on ganging the weakest, basically racing for a reset. Once the weak country is down to 3 fields there will be a final battle between the 1st and 2nd countries to determine reset.

Before that the weakest country faces two fronts bearing the brunt of both numerically superior foes.

Hornet....

DUDE !  Talk to me....  great observation.

I am not supposing that I am correct in all my opinions or observations.  [caveat]

I see AH as having two real goals.

Individual goals (stats, perks for planes shot down, tgts bombed etc)

Collective goals (land grabbed, resets caused, perks)

How people fly, even if not targeted specifically at either one goal... still advances along those lines.

The three country is designed to be a modifier  even if we aren't talking numbers... but to save the country about to be reset by having the wolves turn on each other at the last minute to try and grab the reset points for themselves.

So the reset points actually serve too functions.  The reasons to strive for a reset and the reason to try and prevent one at the last minute if they aren't going to be your reset points.

The second place team should NEVER get any points for reset.

In your example then... our problems then aren't about inequity of numbers... but rather a design flaw in how flyers are rewarded in this game.  The motivation for the flyers encourages the gang bang.

To this end rather than address that issue, we are masking it with a numbers issue and instituting a band aid fix that has nothing to do with the ailment.

Thanks for your insight!

[Chortle]

I think the only bottom line is that if HTC ever did change the country set up, some of these guys will have full blown psychotic episodes.

As for HTC owning the system, that much is true but I really dont think they're doing this just to annoy the guys with a plane/country fetish. I'm pretty sure they dont want to go out of business anytime soon.

Other than that, what Shane said.

[4510]

Originally posted by Chortle
I think the only bottom line is that if HTC ever did change the country set up, some of these guys will have full blown psychotic episodes.

As for HTC owning the system, that much is true but I really dont think they're doing this just to annoy the guys with a plane/country fetish. I'm pretty sure they dont want to go out of business anytime soon.

Other than that, what Shane said.

Even in my largest moment of frustration I never really feel that HiTech is trying to screw anyone group of people.  Not because I know him or because he is a nice guy.  It just isn't in his best interest.

However I don't think this particular course of action is in the best interest of the entire community.  Everyone acts  as if the Majority requested this change.  Well if the issue is a numbers problem and two countries added together can't negate the advantage of a single country... I would extrapolate that you don't have a Majority asking for a change.  If you did the two smaller countries added together would be numerically stronger than the one larger.

Also... this BBS doesn't reach everyone.  On major game play issues... HTC should be contacting us directly via email.  Posting surveys when entering the arena... those sorts of things.  Relying on feedback based solely on disgruntled input is a sure way to skew your perspective.

Finally... what Shane said... but added....

If they are too dweeby to see the problem (smaller countries) and act to realign effort to fight less between the smallers and more against the larger.... we don't need a code change... we need a slap upside the head with a cold mackeral to educate them.

[Hornet]

Soup,
Yes I suppose originally HTC may have envisioned the wolves turning on each other at the last moment being enough for the 3rd country.

Your concurrent lines of play are dead on and that is what reinforces the problem -- so HTCs check of the wolves turning on each other never actually happens.

Country 1 with most numbers: Decides to keep ganging and get that reset

Country 2 with 2nd most numbers: Decides to keep ganging because everyone can beef up their stats, earning enough perks to offset losing the reset award.

I don't know if HTCs focus on ENY is the final iteration of a solution, I do think it speaks volumes about acknowledging the uberplane crutch issue.

Basically, HTC needs to find a way to modify the behavior of country 1 and country 2. Switch them from a cowardly path of least resistance mentality towards a clash of titans mentalilty where they are both compelled to hurl themselves at the greatest threat.

[Simaril]

Originally posted by Hornet
Soup,
Yes I suppose originally HTC may have envisioned the wolves turning on each other at the last moment being enough for the 3rd country.

Your concurrent lines of play are dead on and that is what reinforces the problem -- so HTCs check of the wolves turning on each other never actually happens.

Country 1 with most numbers: Decides to keep ganging and get that reset

Country 2 with 2nd most numbers: Decides to keep ganging because everyone can beef up their stats, earning enough perks to offset losing the reset award.

I don't know if HTCs focus on ENY is the final iteration of a solution, I do think it speaks volumes about acknowledging the uberplane crutch issue.

Basically, HTC needs to find a way to modify the behavior of country 1 and country 2. Switch them from a cowardly path of least resistance mentality towards a clash of titans mentalilty where they are both compelled to hurl themselves at the greatest threat.

4510, what hornet said

[4510]

Originally posted by Hornet

Basically, HTC needs to find a way to modify the behavior of country 1 and country 2. Switch them from a cowardly path of least resistance mentality towards a clash of titans mentalilty where they are both compelled to hurl themselves at the greatest threat.

I agree 100% !  We should support the functioning of the three country model.  If the offended don't use the tool provided them no further help should be offered.  IF the three country tool cannot handle the situation (I.E. one country outnumbers the other two combined by  X number (not sure what the delta needs to be) then we limit plane set in some manner. I suggest we limit the ENY planes to the ME163 field.  So people can still have them.. they just need to fly them farther to join the fight.  If the larger country is backed into a corner it affects nothing.. but the more successful they are... the farther distance to the front for the high ENY aircraft.

[4510]

Originally posted by Simaril
4510, what hornet said

Simaril,

 I am there.... Hornet and I essentially share the same viewpoint.  Looking at your endorsement, I would suggest that same is true between you and I.

I too want to see things work well in the arena... I just think we have rushed to judgement and that we have flawed logic in use as to how and when to impose some sort of limitation.  

I also am optimistic that we can all figure this out and come up with something that works.