Author Topic: Every Man For Himself - High  (Read 2797 times)

Offline dtango

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« Reply #60 on: August 16, 2004, 11:27:47 AM »
Widewing:

Can't speak for others but I know members of the 412th have met in person from across the country.  

I spent 1/2 day with skatsr, skatjr, ringup, and xaqut1 out at in NoCal.  Jonnyb and Midnight have visited each other in MA.  Midnight & silverhk used to work together and would visit each other.  Blckshp & pand & others hooked up in Tennesse somewhere.  Blckshp and I met in Dallas while he was on tour and we visited HTC together.  These are just a couple of examples.  

None of us knew each other until we met online.  But we've developed great friendships along the way.  Not sure what's so bad about choosing the friends you have because you have the same values and some pretty specific interests that are alike.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Offline Widewing

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« Reply #61 on: August 16, 2004, 11:44:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by dtango
Widewing:

Can't speak for others but I know members of the 412th have met in person from across the country.  

I spent 1/2 day with skatsr, skatjr, ringup, and xaqut1 out at in NoCal.  Jonnyb and Midnight have visited each other in MA.  Midnight & silverhk used to work together and would visit each other.  Blckshp & pand & others hooked up in Tennesse somewhere.  Blckshp and I met in Dallas while he was on tour and we visited HTC together.  These are just a couple of examples.  

None of us knew each other until we met online.  But we've developed great friendships along the way.  Not sure what's so bad about choosing the friends you have because you have the same values and some pretty specific interests that are alike.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs


There's nothing wrong with having real friends and enjoying a hobby together. I'm referring to guys who have never met their countrymates, who in many instances fly 200+ hours a month and have developed an unhealthy mindset towards what REALLY IS and REALLY ISN'T important. This is recreation. If becomes a genuine lifestyle and demonstrates unhealthy emotional attachments, then a real problem exists for these people. Unfortunately, there seems to be quite a few that exhibit this behavior, as seen in the MA or on this BBS. Clearly, what you guys did was turn off the computer, get together and create real relationships and use the game to share your hobby. That's the way it should be. You have brought reality into a virtual world, these others have made a virtual world their reality. And, that's why they can't cope well with changes because in their minds, their reality has changed.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline sax

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« Reply #62 on: August 16, 2004, 12:25:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by dtango
Phookat:

As if a RL squadron would have their P-51D's pullled to be replaced by their P-51B's?  Hmmm.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs


I agree with Widewing on this one dtango--problem here is a lot of people are forgetting it's a game.

I don't agree with taking players rides---just think we could give it an honest effort for a month before coming to the BBS and condeming it.
Might be folks will enjoy variety more than they thot possible

Offline gofaster

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« Reply #63 on: August 16, 2004, 12:48:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Midnight: Since you conseed side balance is needed.


Try come up with an idea that does the following.

1. Moves people to the other side.

This is the basic issue, I have herd lots of ideas but most that I have seen are always made to "Not impact me". So they were basicly saying for this small penalty I still won't change countries and still get to fly the way I want. Well that dosn't acomplish the thing you agreed needed to be solved.


HiTech


Its not side-balancing that we need, its base-balancing.

Last night Rooks were in the crapper, getting hammered on the west by Knights and north by Bish.  Bish were knock-knock-knocking on our main island and already had stolen our carrier on the northern port.  Knights were fighting to get our barrier island on the west.  We had some bases leading towards furball island that we were using to launch defensive sweeps.

So when the Rook squads started logging on for their ops, the first order of business was to give us some breathing room base-wise.

But wait!  That horrible side-evener program wouldn't let us work with 163s, 262s, and P-51Ds!  It was open season on Rook HQ for the big heavies and Arados.

Seems to me that limiting the planeset just makes it harder to defend when you're on the ropes.

edit: and another thing, this would be a good time to introduce the Malcolm Hood to the P-51B.  You know, to ease the complaints about not having the visibility that the P-51D provides.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2004, 01:01:45 PM by gofaster »

Offline phookat

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« Reply #64 on: August 16, 2004, 01:07:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by dtango
Phookat:

As if a RL squadron would have their P-51D's pullled to be replaced by their P-51B's?  Hmmm.


If they did, would they quit?  For that matter, as someone else said, if the had to change from 51Bs to 51Ds and they didn't like it...would they quit?

Offline Hyrax81st

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« Reply #65 on: August 16, 2004, 03:59:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
...and have developed an unhealthy mindset towards what REALLY IS and REALLY ISN'T important. This is recreation.


Good !   That's settled.

Now we can go back to the way AH worked before the patch

:D

Offline acetnt367th

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« Reply #66 on: August 16, 2004, 04:52:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Cobra412

I flew with the Bish for a year straight and from day one alot of the Bish belittled you, were rude, and had absolutely nothing good to say at all except for their own squad mates.  Maybe if one day Bish could learn to be a little more respectful then folks would fly there.  There are alot of good guys on Bish but for the most part they get what they deserve when folks leave.  If you treat your countrymen like watermelon on a daily basis then your bound to have them leave.  I wouldn't be surprised if half the new folks that come on also leave or change sides because of this.  Who wants to deal with folks that give you sarcastic remarks for anything you ask?  It's pretty bad when you want to mute your own country channel because of how rude folks are.


This carte blanche statement is typical stereo typing. How could you possibly say that "Alot" of Bishop are rude? When people join they are randomly given a country. Many decide to stay and some leave. Rude people don't just choose to hang out in Bishland.

I have played this game for only approx 2 years most of which as a bishop and I certainly do not share your opinion. I have flown with many of the Bish and this just does not happen regularly, as you suggest.

Acetnt

P.S. I do not care which country I fly for and I actually like early war planes

Offline Busher

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« Reply #67 on: August 16, 2004, 05:06:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by JB42
It really comes down to this, for some reason more people CHOOSE to fly Rooks. Whether it be for the numbers advantge or because perhaps flying for Knights and Bish is not as much their cup of tea. Regardless the reason, HiTech has decidied to penalize us for this.

I think the only way to solve the numbers imbalance is get the Bish/Knits to make flying for their "country" more inticing.
Its obvious that droves of players from the Knights and the Bishops have no problem country switching or leaving without any hesitation. I and many other Rooks, in contrast, have no desire to leave Rooks.

But hey, its the 21st century, lets put the blame where it really belongs. Knights and Bish cannot keep up with the numbers of the Rooks, so it must be the Rooks fault, penalize the Rooks.


Now this was no surprise. Consider the source. :rolleyes:
Geezuz - the kids and the newbs are always gonna join the big numbers. Is it any surprise I quit this?:rolleyes:
Being male, an accident of birth. Being a man, a matter of age. Being a gentleman, a matter of choice.

Offline jdpete75

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« Reply #68 on: August 16, 2004, 05:20:01 PM »
While I still dont agree with the new fix, and my initial reaction to bishland was pretty crappy, there was a plus side.  Some folks that I didnt figure I would like at all turned out to be not to bad.  There were also some that were jerks (and I figured they would be).  The bish do have a method to thier madness, its not the same as I am used to, but a strategy nontheless.  Im not going to comment on what I think is wrong because it is just a diference in tactics between bish and rooks.  I did however fly with some folks at A28 and at A9-A10 that were not only good sticks but seemed to be pretty decent folks in general.  The two 367 guys and 2 others at 28 (sorry cant remember the prefix) were flyin hard and doing well at controlling the tempo of the fight.  Check 6s were given on time and butts were cleared quickly, I enjoyed that fight immensly many nit 38s and 190s perished.  I am going to fly for the bish for a couple hours tonight before I change back to rook (regardless of numbers), and changing back has nothing to do with the people there,  it has more to do with the difference in battle tactics between the 2 teams.  All in all the experience wasnt bad but I probably wont switch again without my squad.

Offline peregrin

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« Reply #69 on: August 16, 2004, 05:42:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by dtango
Humble -

Sorry I missed your other post.  Actually we rarely do the mission thing.  We've been accused of being a furball squad by guys who thought they were joining a strat squad.

We're primarily about A2A plain and simple.  The teamwork I'm speaking about is at the tactical level - a 2-ship element working in beautiful concert, a 4-ship flight working in harmony with another 4-ship flight etc.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs


So, what's wrong with the p-51B then, If it's not a JABO issue?

--Peregrine.

Offline ACE108

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« Reply #70 on: August 16, 2004, 05:59:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hyrax81st
I know ! Give perk CREDITS for moving to the other side. That way you are REWARDING someone for moving rather than PUNISHING someone for staying !


Punt for Hightech. !!!!

Not a bad Idea, I like that one.

After all it sort of looks like we're cutting our own throats with all this whining.
So far we lost the fuel strats and now we have penalties for having numbers. What's next ?
We still have unresolved issues, like trees that don't die and Tigers that get whacked with one hit from a panzer. This is the kind of stuff that may or may not make the game better.
I'm sure we could debate all that stuff, but the point is that were not making the game better. It seems were just getting our selves back against a wall.

That's why I like his Idea of Rewarding a person to move when the numbers are inbalanced and the war has NOT been won. Then it's that persons choice, and your not punishing a person who doesn't want to switch all the time and likes the squad and country his on. I feel it's a bad idea to punish folks. I'm sure we have allot of loners in this game that could benefit from this system..

I may be wrong but this may be less painfull.

Offline Cobra412

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« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2004, 06:56:02 PM »
Ace well what you may consider rude and what I do may be two different things.  As I said before there are alot of good folks on Bish but there are also alot of jerks too.  I won't post names or squads but one thing I can say is I've never had an issue with any of the 367th guys.  

I know who I can fly with and be comfortable that they won't treat me like watermelon even though I'm a newbie and may make mistakes on the Bish side.  I also know who I wouldn't trust to turn my back on for one second either.  Sit back sometime and just watch how many smart arse comments come out on country channel.  Watch and see just how often a new guys comes on and are basically pushed to the side and basically told to shutup.  Something that would have taken them less than a few seconds to reply to they instead waste more time being a jerk.  Guess I just have a different view on what the relationship between countrymen should be like.

Offline Warp

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« Reply #72 on: August 16, 2004, 07:25:37 PM »
Ahhhhh, jdpete!!!!   I think you are on the verge of it all!!   Funny how you can have some knock down, drag out verbal wars on the channels, then switch countries and that same guy ends up being the best wingman you ever had....or laughs and welcomes you to their side.  

This is the crux of my whole point in all of this.  Not everyone has the benefit of having been around with Dale and crew since the Warbird days, but those of us who have haven't totally forgotten (although it seems many have).

I highly encourage folks to change around and get to know the other folks.  You might be pleasantly surprised.

I honestly believe the current "issues" we are experiencing with the "numbers" arguement is directly due to pilots galvanizing themselves to one country.  All you ever experience of the "other" pilots is shooting them down or getting shot down and the ensuing babble on channel 200...usually a knee jerk reaction of frustration.  I'm as guilty as anyone else, but the difference is, I switch to that country a week later and end up flying WITH those guys and we have a good laugh.  

As far as rude people, well, I look at it this way:

1.  There will always be rude people, no matter where you go or what you do.  These folks are discovered rather quickly and the .squelch command works great.  

2.  Being thin-skinned is not a particularly endearing trait for a fighter pilot :-)

3.  MOST people on AH are pretty decent and if you take the time to go fly WITH them, you'd find that out.

Do I agree with everything in AH, or the way Dale has everything running?  Not at all, but I don't blame the players in the game for that and I don't hold a grudge over it.  

It is no one person's fault that the rooks consistently have high numbers.  The current problems we face are our own fault as a group.  We have brought it upon ourselves through our actions (or lack there of).  

In particular, I feel the biggest culprit in our numbers issue is loyalty to one team.  To me (i.e. this is my opinion, I am not stating this as fact), it is silly when someone calls you a traitor for switching teams, it is silly when someone tries to bring the notion of "honor" into a video game (ex: shooting parachutes).  It matters none, the shooter gets no credit and the pilot under the chute loses nothing...at least nothing that really matters.

It's a game.  Unfortunately, we have allowed an "us vs them" attitude to rule the day and all that is done in the name of the game.  If you ask me, a SMART pilot will change countries and LEARN how it is that one particular pilot that always seems to kill them flies.  LEARN his tactics and you learn how to defend against it.  

I can honestly say that the game was much more challenging and enjoyable when we had the squads rotating around.  The skill sets were varied.  The challenges made you think instead of react to a pavlovian stimulus response.

However, I can not speak for the folks that are looking for the quick, easy kill without regard for a challenge.  If you get your kicks by whooping up on people with 3:1 odds, well, that's your gig I guess.  At the same time, there are very few people in the game that can fly lone wolf and expect to come out ahead.  We experience some of this when we consistently get the furballers at A44 who seemingly ignore all logic and strategy to the detriment of our country as a whole.  Well, what can you say?  Winning the war isn't their agenda...should it be?  Certainly it can be argued that the "goal" of the game was designed to "winning the war", but on the whole, the game is so varied and offers so many aspects, you can't really belittle someone for enjoying any one of those aspects and concentrating on it.  I'm sure all of us "war winners" are just as "annoying" to the furballers as they are to us.  Either way, that's getting off the subject.

I really, really believe that what we need is some plain old team rotating and general mixing of the pilots.  As mentioned, we are a community, but we have holed ourselves up on one team or another and refusing to budge.  This has generated a built-in animosity factor that has resulted in what we see now.

I wonder, when folks go to the con (not having been to one myself yet), does everyone divide up into seperate corners based on the team you fly for and refuse to interact with the others?  I really don't think so, so why do we do it in the game???

Offline DEMAN

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« Reply #73 on: August 16, 2004, 08:50:12 PM »
The real question I ask myself about all this B.S. is "why now"?

 The reason I ask this is because our squad was Rook when Rooks were in the same boat as the Knights are now. We moved to AH 2.5 years ago and just by the luck of the draw ended up Rooks because the first squaddie that tested the game out started as a Rook. The Rooks we were HUGELY outnumbered on a full time basis for the first year the 81st was here. I don't remember HiTech changing the rules to even out the sides then, do any of you?

 What I do remember was a group of Rook CO's getting together and coming up with a way to try to fight the numbers problems with a tactic of teamwork and goodwill, thus the RJO's. HUGE kudos to GhostDancer, BFD and the rest of the RJO founders for having the foresight and perseverance to try to coordinate this. This wasn't just an organization to help fight the hordes but was also working behind the scenes to foster a better attitude of Rook toward Rook to make Rookland a more appealing country to be a part of. Everyone worked to keep things polite, courteous and congratulatory between Rooks whenever possible. This obviously worked and I believe that the majority of squads that moved here in the last 1.5 years did so because of a better country attitude than what they currently had.

 Rooks changed their fortunes with hard work, perseverance and a good attitude and I for one find HiTech’s meddling more than a little out of line due to the fact nothing was done by him in the past when the shoe was on the other foot.

 The whiners that started all this rolling should maybe look at cleaning up their own house rather than having the management change the rules to suit their need.

Offline dtango

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« Reply #74 on: August 16, 2004, 08:50:36 PM »
Quote
If they did, would they quit? For that matter, as someone else said, if the had to change from 51Bs to 51Ds and they didn't like it...would they quit?

Phookat- Quitting was not an option but they sure complained about it like humble said :p.
Quote
So, what's wrong with the p-51B then, If it's not a JABO issue?

Peregrin (Pippin? :) ) - for me personally their's nothing wrong with the P-51B.  It has a low ENY which indicates to me that HTC thinks that it's harder to get kills in which is certainly true for me.  Given the choice I would fly the P-51D- (a) I get more kills in it, (b) the bubble canopy P-51 is the quintisential Mustang to me, but I'm happy to fly the P-51B if that's what's available.

My concern is the impact that frequent country switching will have on squad cohesion - not what Warp is talking about but a proverbial dog chasing the tail syndrome as a result of the short-term numbers spiking over a 1-3 hour period that leaves squad mates stranded in different countries.  Some safeguards to squad cohesion would improve the current system in my view.

That doesn't invalidate others' preferences in plane.  For those who want to fly the P-51D who knows the myriad of reasons they may have?  The issue is they have their reasons and are faced with a dilemma they don't think is fair- wrong, right, or indifferent.  Brow-beating them or denying that their dilemma is invalid isn't going to change minds.  Helping to answer the WIIFM (what's-in-it-for-me) question for them will help.

Good grief, I'm rambling now :P.

Warp - great post!  

I'm actually for system semi-random auto-side-balancing countries at the start of each new map if it could be done by squads as well as individuals.  This could be as simple or as sophisticated as HTC would want to implement (e.g. just based on subscribed base to decisions made based on actual trend analysis). Heck I would even be happy to manually move a squadron upon request for the good of the community if that's what it takes.  To address short term fluctuation in numbers I would try applying the simple rule of not being able to switch to any country with the higher (not just the highest) numbers and trust the auto-side-balancing to even things out over the longer term.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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