SpitV vs SpitIX Verticle Climb

[Raptor]

Ok, I was in H2H in a 1943 RAF vs Luftwaffe setup. I was flying a 109G2 and would come across both a spit5 and 9, So I pulled up to rope them. They both followed me straight up and the Spit5 was able to follow me further straight up. I am not exactly sure on their E states but in several encounters with both spit5 and 9 at co-alt, the spit5 could hang with me longer than the 9. This does not seem right because shouldnt the 9 have more power than 5:confused:


Also... how can such a slow plane like a HURR hang with a 109 in a steep climb. I will have more speed than a hurr at co alt and pull up (from a head on merge). The hurr will do a loop then roll over and follow me pretty far up. I thought something as slow as the hurr wouldnt be able to hold E like that.

[1K3]

Originally posted by Raptor01

Also... how can such a slow plane like a HURR hang with a 109 in a steep climb.

I was the "HURR"

were your flaps extended?

[Karnak]

In AH2 both the Spit V and Spit IX are 1942 aircraft.  We don't have the grat climbing 1943 Spit IX that got the Spit IX the reputation of being the best Spitfire of all.

[1K3]

In AH2 this time, flying spit 9s now require some common sense thinking skills, not flying skills

[Raptor]

I wouldnt extend flaps until reaching slow speeds. Flaps slow you down faster and Ive found you can climb higher by waiting to extend flaps until about 50mph above stall

[Crumpp]

So I pulled up to rope them. They both followed me straight up and the Spit5 was able to follow me further straight up. I am not exactly sure on their E states but in several encounters with both spit5 and 9 at co-alt, the spit5 could hang with me longer than the 9. This does not seem right because shouldnt the 9 have more power than 5

All the spits seem to zoom climb way too good.  I had a Spit IX go H2H with my 190A8.  I pulled up, he turned 180, then zoomed up above me and got a shot in.  
Kind of unrealistic, especially when zoom climb is basically Weight/drag.  The heavier the better at speed = inertia.  The Spitfire is a very light plane with more drag than the 190.  

Crumpp

[1K3]

Originally posted by Crumpp
All the spits seem to zoom climb way too good.  I had a Spit IX go H2H with my 190A8.  I pulled up, he turned 180, then zoomed up above me and got a shot in.  
Kind of unrealistic, especially when zoom climb is basically Weight/drag.  The heavier the better at speed = inertia.  The Spitfire is a very light plane with more drag than the 190.  

Crumpp

what's your alt when you were fighting the spit IX? if you were above 15K +, you're "owned"

The Spitfire is a very light plane with more drag than the 190

of course the 190 has higher drag than the spit, take a look at the radial engine If you do not agree, i would love to see the "data"

[Crumpp]

http://www.anycities.com/user/j22/j22/aero.htm

It's down at the bottom.


This is who did the data.

http://www.anycities.com/user/j22/j22/lednicer.htm

This is where he works:

http://www.am-inc.com/

Here is why a 190 should out zoom a Spitfire at ANY co-speed state, It has almost 4 times the potential energy at equal speed:

http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/energy.html#sec-energy-conserved

Since we are about to start comparing these mechanical forms of energy with other forms, we must start paying attention to an additional detail: an object’s potential energy depends not only on its altitude but also on its mass. A 300-ton Boeing at any given altitude has 300 times more potential energy than a 1-ton Piper at the same altitude.

And here is why a Spitfire in a co-energy state trying to DIRECTLY follow a 190 in a sustained climb will be left behind.  The FW-190 climbs at a much faster speed but much shallower angle.

The dividing line between the mushing regime and the front side of the power curve is the highest point on the power curve. At this point, the airplane can fly with the minimal amount of dissipation; this is the “low-rent district”. The airspeed where this occurs is called the best-rate-of-climb airspeed and denoted VY.7

Crumpp

[Kweassa]

In AH2 both the Spit V and Spit IX are 1942 aircraft. We don't have the grat climbing 1943 Spit IX that got the Spit IX the reputation of being the best Spitfire of all.

 By this I assume you're mentioning the 16+ Boost on the Mk.V?

 ...

 I'm curious Karnak, just how much performance does this extra +4 amount of boost provide over the AH1 Mk.V? Did you ever do a test on it?

 If it is anything significant a difference, then I think it presents a problem when using the Spit5 in scenarios based in 1941.

 Maybe HTC should tweak the existing SpitV, clip its wings, give it 16+ boost and set it up as a new variant.. rather then do away with the old +12 Spit5...

[Furball]

You boring BnZ luftwhiners could be going 600mph+ but as long as the Spit pilot times lead turn / reversal right he will always get chance for the shot.

Also, don't forget .50's and hispano's can hit upwards of 800 - 1,000 yards (pretty much extreme range now i suspect) especially when shooting at a slow-moving-about-to-stall luftwhiner, so even if you do have energy advantage you will need quite a bit to gain that extra 2,400 / 3,000 feet.

[Crumpp]

You boring BnZ luftwhiners could be going 600mph +

Actually Furball,

The Energy fight should be a very exciting fight.  Just read about Randy Cunningham vs Col. Toon.

At least much more exciting than "lock on their tail and match maneuvers" angle fighting.

Luftwhiners!  That seems to be the standard answer when folks have no facts left to present.

Also, don't forget .50's and hispano's can hit upwards of 800 - 1,000 yards (pretty much extreme range now i suspect) especially when shooting at a slow-moving-about-to-stall luftwhiner, so even if you do have energy advantage you will need quite a bit to gain that extra 2,400 / 3,000 feet.

The bullet can go that far, sure.  If the gunnery is realistic though good luck hitting.  Especially with that Hispano.  Ever seen the ballistics?  The .50 cal has a better chance of hitting but being a solid slug will lose some it's damage potential in that long flight.  If you got wing mounted .50 cals, GOOD LUCK!!  Your bullets will be about 30 feet or more to the right or left depending on your convergence.  Given dispersion IF your really really lucky you might land A single hit.

Crumpp

[Wotan]

You never zoom straight up and hang on your prop. It’s as much a sucker move as being roped. Even though you are a better climbing plane it all depends on angle and speed.  Even then you are only creating a few hundred yards separation over a few thousand feet.

Unless you can read energy states accurately and unless you account for the fact that the trailing plane need not pull inside your climb or follow in pure pursuit (he can "cut the corner") you will get shot down. 50s and Hizookas have much better range and even though they are near stall they can still aim good enough to spray and pray until they fall away.

How you avoid getting shot down is to simply spiral up at a high angle tightening your turn as you climb.

The spit will bleed most of his e trying to get inside of you. As you go up get tighter and tighter he won’t be able to pull lead with out stalling. It takes some experience to get the timing down but usually you will know when to drop the hammer as the spit falls out of the circle.

You don’t want to pull your turn so tight as to bleed all your energy but just tight enough to force the spit to pull lead. Also with the new icons the more lead they pull the less of your icon they will see.

This maneuver even works on a faster plane because initially his speed will force a wider circle. If he's smart he will zoom and yo yo. If he is a dumb arse like 99% of all spit pilots he will bled all his energy trying to follow you up. They can taste the food on their plate but you sit just out of their guns until finally they realize they have lost and try to get out as fast as they can.

This move works in every game from FB to AH, WBs. This is the best way to fly a G-6, F-4 and G-2 in AH. Especially in AH2 as I have seen spits stall and auger into the deck.

Dont waste your time on those links Crump posted. Unless you are taking a course. Most rl stuff doesnt translate to well into the game world.

[thrila]

I'm sure i read a report between a jug and  the spit IX somewhere before.  

I'm positive it read something along the lines of- the p47 easily out zooms the spitfire until climbing speed is reached at which point the spitfire quickly gains and passes the p47.

This ring any bells to anyone? anyone recognise this?  I'm positive i've read this somewhere.


This means little comparing to the 109 as it climbs well too, but thought it may add to the 190 debate.

[Crumpp]

You never zoom straight up and hang on your prop. It’s as much a sucker move as being roped. Even though you are a better climbing plane it all depends on angle and speed. Even then you are only creating a few hundred yards separation over a few thousand feet.

I did not zoom straight up and hang on the prop Wotan.



 

This move works in every game from FB to AH, WBs. This is the best way to fly a G-6, F-4 and G-2 in AH. Especially in AH2 as I have seen spits stall and auger into the deck.

That was my point.  In the Bf-109 you can get into the "Energy" knife fight which is where the 190 should be too.  That is what it's designed for, not bore and snore, clumsey passes followed by miles of extenting.  That is unrealistic and boring.

Dont waste your time on those links Crump posted. Unless you are taking a course. Most rl stuff doesnt translate to well into the game world.

I thought this game prided itself on realism?  Pyro is redoing the FM for the 190 so I wouldn't put words into HTC's mouth just yet.

Crumpp

[Wotan]

Originally posted by Crumpp
I did not zoom straight up and hang on the prop Wotan.

That was my point.  In the Bf-109 you can get into the "Energy" knife fight which is where the 190 should be too.  That is what it's designed for, not bore and snore, clumsey passes followed by miles of extenting.  That is unrealistic and boring.  

I thought this game prided itself on realism?  Pyro is redoing the FM for the 190 so I wouldn't put words into HTC's mouth just yet.

Crumpp

I was replying to the original poster, I have no idea how or what you fly. The way his post read was if he thought simple going vertical in a 109G-2 should be enough even at co-energy to out climb i.e. escape his pursuing Spit 5. As pointed out the AH spit 5 runs at 16lbs boost.

When I flew 190s exclusively I never went above 12k or so and would DF on the deck with any plane and win.

However 109s are best flown as Energy fighters but not typical B-n-Z or by using altitude and high speed passes.

A 109 (almost all variants) can use its high climb rate to dictate the engagement. Normal Boom & Zoom tactics with very high-speed passes do not suit the 109's style. It is better suited to the style of energy combat where the main objective is to set up a moderate altitude advantage (2k at the most) right over or near the target. Then use short sprint dives with moderate closure rates for gun passes. The 109 can then climb back out and loop or climb away as necessary.

Don't fool yourself into thinking a few tweaks here and there will make AH more "real". Nothing in these games is real. Not the FM's or the gunnery or the DM. It’s better if folks realize that rather then banging their head against the wall. More importantly how the game gets played completely destroys any idea of realism. Even ToD won’t be able to live up to "realism".