Author Topic: No Russian Tanks  (Read 2154 times)

Offline Odee

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« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2004, 08:11:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by B17Skull12
Angus one must use mozilla to get rid of pop ups.


T34=Nik come and get me!

No way to protect itself from the Air.


You are out of your mind.... Mozilla is one of the largest culprits for pop-ups...  yeesh :eek:
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Offline B17Skull12

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« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2004, 10:57:12 AM »
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Originally posted by Odee
You are out of your mind.... Mozilla is one of the largest culprits for pop-ups...  yeesh :eek:
i've been using it for 3 months.  last time i saw a pop up was the last time i used explorer.
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Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2004, 05:13:27 PM »
The 76MM gun on Shermans could not easily take out Tigers or Panthers.

Another tidbit on this, is it is the same gun used on on the M10 and M18. but the tank units did not get the APCR round that made it more effective, those went to only the tank destroyer units(at least early on).

It was better then the Short 75, and great agaist the Panzer 3 and 4 but would still fail to penatrate the frontal armor on a Panther or tiger even at ridiculusly close range.


Another thing about the 76 gun shermans is they did not go into action untill late 44 I think.

One advantage the Sherman had that no one has brought up is it had a stabilized gun, and when it was working would allow the sherman to move and shoot at the same time.

Belton y Cooper talks about that in his book Death Traps : The Survival of an American Armored Division in World War II

Link (Great book if you want to know how much of a nightmare it was to be a US tanker in Europe.)


The Sherman could hold its own against Panzer 3 and 4s, its gun could kill the both without to much trouble. Its armor was ok against the 50mm gun on the 3. The long 75 on the 4 would kill it the Sherman with ease.

The Sherman had really narrow tracks making it less mobile over mud and snow then even the Tiger.  A big problem.

Heck even the 90MM gun on the M36 and M26 tanks, still had some trouble killing Tigers and panthers, the gun on both the Tiger and panther could take out an M36(way further for the M36 since it had light armor) or M26 tank further then the 90MM could take them.

The M26 was close to a Panther in armor and a pretty good tank over all. In the book I reference about they talk about a special version with a really long 90MM gun, look wacky and had to have big springs on the top of the turret to counter the weight, they ended up cutting the front Armor off a Panther and adding it to the front of the M26 to help keep it alive.  He includes pictures.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2004, 05:22:44 PM by GtoRA2 »

Offline humble

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« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2004, 05:42:37 PM »
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Originally posted by Karnak
In theory maybe, but in practice? No.


Curious where you got that impression...as a general rule TD's were used when ever possible vs armoured counter attacks. Normally tank vs tank combat occured during offensive combined arms manuevers. Especially in attacks on urban areas since TD's were especially vulnerable in urban enviornment. US losses from June 6, 1944 to the wars end were horiffic however. Average life expectancy of a US tanker was on par with a luffwable "baby seal". There is one story of a replacement depot sending 17 recovered/repaired tanks forward at daylight and "re-recovering" 15 of them again before 3pm that afternoon. The key element to US success was the 2 "heavy" armoured divisions. Each had roughly 40% more tanks and this enabled them to maintain pressure and attrit the enemy at a rate faster than they could sustain. In effect we thru enough at them to render them combat ineffective in spite of the high cost in tanks and men. Shermans strengths (as mentioned above) were numbers, reliability & recoverability. Individually the tank had little chance vs either a PZIVh or Panther.

I'd agree "Death Traps" really is a great source
« Last Edit: August 31, 2004, 06:40:37 PM by humble »

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Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2004, 07:51:05 PM »
Why all this talk of 'killing'?

Blow a track off a Panther or Tiger and it is basically out of the fight. It becomes a pillbox that can be finished off at ones pleasure.

Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2004, 09:02:21 PM »
milo
 that is an equalizer for all tanks.

 You have to be pretty close for that kind of acuracy, and for a sherman, being that close to a tiger or panther is death, unless he has lots of other targets to worry about. :D

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2004, 06:14:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GtoRA2
milo
 that is an equalizer for all tanks.

You have to be pretty close for that kind of acuracy, and for a sherman, being that close to a tiger or panther is death, unless he has lots of other targets to worry about. :D


True.;) Point being, many are hung up on 'killing'.

The Tigers and Panthers did have lots of other threats to worry about, like AT weapons.

In NA, British 57mm(6pdr) AT gun 'knocked out' (I think this is a better word than 'kill') 2 Tigers and several other German tanks. This was in Jan 1943 at a distance of 400yd to 800yd. The Brits salvaged one and I believe this is the one at Bovington today.

There is a report of this Tiger in ISBN 0-11-290426-2.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2004, 10:31:18 AM »
humble,

Because in the rapid pace of combat they were not always able to get a tank destroyer in place or always have one available.  Combat is not a clean thing.  If they had one, of course they'd use it, but I disagree with the cakewalk portrayal that was given.  Almost like "Oh look, another Tiger.  How frightfully annoying.  Kill it with the tank destroyer.  Are you free for dinner around 1700?"

Panthers and Tigers did not have their fearful reputation among American vehicle crews becase they were harmless, easy kills for any tank destroyer that was always available.
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Offline humble

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« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2004, 01:23:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
humble,

Because in the rapid pace of combat they were not always able to get a tank destroyer in place or always have one available.  Combat is not a clean thing.  If they had one, of course they'd use it, but I disagree with the cakewalk portrayal that was given.  Almost like "Oh look, another Tiger.  How frightfully annoying.  Kill it with the tank destroyer.  Are you free for dinner around 1700?"

Panthers and Tigers did not have their fearful reputation among American vehicle crews becase they were harmless, easy kills for any tank destroyer that was always available.


Never ment to imply that you were wrong....simply clarify what "doctrine" was. Tanks were offensive combined arms weapons. Tank Destroyers were used primarily in a defensive role against enemy armor. Realistically neither had much chance against a tiger or panther. The TD had some advantage of being deployed defensively and using 'shoot & scoot" tactics. A sherman didnt realistically have any chance till they began deploying "jumbo's" as the lead tank in the platoon. The britsh used the firefly as the 3rd tank in the "stick" to provide cover fire. which worked much better. since the allieswere on the offensive the germans not only had the inherent advantage in the tank itself but also picked the terrain. Life as a tanker was short bloody and painful...

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Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2004, 04:56:37 PM »
I'd like to see the M7 / M7b1 priest.  That would be a fun one to play around with.  Either that or a Hummel.
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Offline memnon

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« Reply #40 on: September 04, 2004, 08:43:02 PM »
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I'd like to see the M7 / M7b1 priest.  That would be a fun one to play around with.  Either that or a Hummel.


ahhhh Mobile Artillery not so good in a tank battle but just think of the devastation you could inflict on a base that is frantically looking for you while you lob 105 rounds in.:D

Not to say some don't already do that with tanks.

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2004, 09:33:36 PM »
Sherman M4A3E8 75.
Faster then a pz IV. Better fire on the move. Great turrent speed.Better armour. Able to get a kill on the Panzer IV. 50 cal AA gun!
Great HE perfomance.

1944 standard Sherman.

T34-85 Best armour of the non perk tanks.
No AA mg. Gun equivelent to Panzer IV gun. Speed on roads best in game. Cross country it shook so bad it was slower. Its running gear bounce numbers were horrendous. It can not do a quick stop and fire. Inferior gun laying to the Panzer and Sherman.
Cool looking.

1944 standard T34.

Offline MOIL

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« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2004, 02:35:17 AM »
PLEASE please keep in mind this is a "flight sim" not a GV game. Those people should go play WWII online or something.
One shouldn't clog up these boards with such silly notions like more and better GV's than present. HTC has their hands full with much more important issues than GV's {which as I was strongly told "their an afterthought"}

Offline Octavius

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« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2004, 02:41:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MOIL
PLEASE please keep in mind this is a "flight sim" not a GV game. Those people should go play WWII online or something.
One shouldn't clog up these boards with such silly notions like more and better GV's than present. HTC has their hands full with much more important issues than GV's {which as I was strongly told "their an afterthought"}


It's ok, keep venting, we know you're angry :)  Having fun in that other sim?  Or are you still playing here?  

I think the Aircraft:GV ratio speaks for the gv "afterthought".
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Offline simshell

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« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2004, 02:44:00 AM »
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Originally posted by MOIL
PLEASE please keep in mind this is a "flight sim" not a GV game. Those people should go play WWII online or something.
One shouldn't clog up these boards with such silly notions like more and better GV's than present. HTC has their hands full with much more important issues than GV's {which as I was strongly told "their an afterthought"}


if HTC was thinking that way then why they making new GV?
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