Ta-152 vs Spit 14

[Urchin]

Well, now I am gonna hijack my own post.  Thats ok, since it IS my post.  

I'd LOVE to have a P-39 and a P-63 introduced.  Could have an early war P-39D, a later-war P-39Q, and the uber monster P-63.  

The early P-39 would be great for Pac setups in the CT, assuming we ever get the Japanese planeset filled in.  

The P-39Q could be east front, mediterrainien , and I think even West front, but maybe not.

[VO101_Isegrim]

Originally posted by Nashwan
The Spitfire Vc with 4 20 mm cannon could reach 6km in about 6 mins 5 sec.

8km took about 9 min 30 secs.

That's for a 1942 Spit with 4 Hispanos.

Reducing that to 2 cannon increased the climb rate by about 8%.

That would mean 6km in about 5 mins 40, 8km in 8 min 45 sec.

The numbers Milo grabbed are hardly for anything else than to incite flames as usual. He grabbed to A-8`s figures at maximum weight, full load with bombrack, the outer 20mm cannon (normally removed for fighter missions), and rear tank. However this hardly appeared until late 1944, and was more like a bomber interceptor.

Perhaps it`s more valid to compare like with like, ie. FW 190A-4 figures at maximum climb (1.42ata).


1.02 min -> 4000 ft
1.911     - > 10500 ft
3.10 min - > 20000 ft
-----------------------------
6.03 min from SL to 20 000 ft at 1.42ata. Very comparable to Spit Vs in their late 1942 +16lbs boost, ie. Nashwan`s numbers.

These number don`t include C-3 boost, that was added to the A-5 and boosted the ROC to 4600 fpm, or about 15%, as per UK sources.

However as Angus said, "Fact remains that in sustained climb the 190 was no match for 1943 onwards spitties. " That`s true. Also the FW 190 was no match for the Spits turning ability.

It`s also true however that Spits were never a match for the FW 190s level and dive acceleration, roll rate, a zooming capabilities and firepower or range.

In fact no Spitfire could match the FW 190`s level speed either until mid-1944 at all the practical flight altitudes up to ca.7000m, when 150 grade fuel was introduced. There was no Spitfire until then that could produce 351mph at SL, and 415 mph at altitude. And the Spit V, the typical British fighter well into 1943, was some 40 mph or even more slower than this... it`s quite understandable why they felt outclassed. It was almost like props vs. jets for them. 190s zooming up and down at speeds they could follow, shooting down unaware Spit pilots from the mass with their ultra-heavy firepower..

It`s strenght versus weaknesses, and I think the FW 190`s strenghts were more favourible - speed is life - under the typical larger scale air battles than solo engagements.

[Karnak]

You guys had a perfectly nice Spit V and Spit IX thread.  Why'd ya move all that blather to this thread?

Go take your RAFanatic and Luftwobble blather back to those threads.

[Crumpp]

I would love to see the P39Q come to AH.  It would be great for several different countries and theaters.

Totally Agree Urchin.

Crumpp

[Angus]

From Isengrim:
"3.10 min - > 20000 ft "

So the 190 series climbed to 20K in 3 minutes 6 second?
Izzie? you Ok?

Bottom line is, there is little data of sustained climb of the 190's. They were climbing favourably at high speed, ok.
10-20 miles faster than a nice spitty, but the same amount less upwards.

[Karnak]

Angus,

He was saying 3.1 minutes to 20k from 10k, not from SL.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
The numbers Milo grabbed are hardly for anything else than to incite flames as usual. He grabbed to A-8`s figures at maximum weight, full load with bombrack, the outer 20mm cannon (normally removed for fighter missions), and rear tank. However this hardly appeared until late 1944, and was more like a bomber interceptor.

If you want to use a different time period, Barbi, be my guest. It was a comparison to a late war Mk IX and a late war A-8.

So now that you stuck your foot in your mouth, here is the Fw graph. Now read it VERY VERY carefully. Make up all the excussssses you want to make up the ~1700f/m difference.



Notice the flying weight Fw listed for the A-8.

Notice it says WITHOUT ETC501 fitted.

Notice it says u/c wheel doors fitted.

Notice it says external surfaces filled and polished.

A late war A-8, dispite what Crumpp says, has a TO weight of 4400kg as stated on a Fw document. When has 4300kg been greater than 4400kg?

You should really do something about your truly autrocious English comprehension.


Now the A-5.

These number don`t include C-3 boost, that was added to the A-5 and boosted the ROC to 4600 fpm, or about 15%

Barbi, 15% increase of 15m/s (from the Fw graph) gives 17.25m/s or 3400f/m.



The only one around here is you Barbi/Isegrim/Kurfurst that incites flames because of your uber is German mentality.

Btw, the Tempest V was doing 415mph IAS at 500ft on 150 grade fuel in July 1944 while in operation with Roland Beamont's Wing.

[GScholz]

Another thread ruined by dick-waving morons. Why don't you all go pray at your altars and leave threads like this alone.

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by GScholz
Another thread ruined by dick-waving morons. Why don't you all go pray at your altars and leave threads like this alone.

But, but the Spit Mk.FW190 has 13.756% more efficent prop airfol than the Bf109 G-Tempest V  at 3,000 meters  when flying in 3 degree celsus air temperatyureat night over Dover englend . DAMMIT THE WORLD MUST KNOW!!!

[Angus]

Milo, sorry to disturb, but this:
"A late war A-8, dispite what Crumpp says, has a TO weight of 4400kg as stated on a Fw document. When has 4300kg been greater than 4400kg? "

This is not so much, and life is too short to make a hell of an argument over 100 kg out of 4400 which is a mere weight difference of 2% or so. Ok, right is right, but......

What is right is that the 190 had a spectacularly good climb rate in a NARROW alt band. It could not live with the Spitties so nicely in a climb rate at other alt bands. It could run with the best, it could shoot like a battleship, it could roll better than anything produced in WW2, it could zoom very well, it could dive quite nicely.

However, caught up in a tight one with a late war Spitty or Mustang could still leave it with little option.
If the 190 would fight a Spit IXbooster for instance, it might find itself at stall, 5K, with no possibility to get away, be it upwards or downwards. With a turning circle of 200 metres or so, the max distance between circling dogfighters would be 300 yards. the 190 hits the climb. the Spitty is 300 metres behind on it's dead 6. The 190 is pulling away at 20 km/hr. It's a long shot already, but it's the maximum in this case. In a certain alt band the 190 has a chance, sometimes, - sometimes not.
Had the 190 broken engagement when the Spitty is closing to 9/3 o'clock, it leaves merely 150 yards between them. You have a 190 climbing at stalling speed with a Spitty 150 yards behind, pulling away with the same speed difference as my fastest and slowest tractor, - i.e. TOOO SLOW.
So, you see, the 190 is better off not mixing it too tightly. An evasive climb is profitable only when the distance is still enough. And that is how they were used with great success.
Hit & Run.

But late war.....the 190A series is outclassed. No more outdiving when P51's are around. Suddenly Spitties stay uncomfortably close in the dive and make a catch when it levels out. That ### P51 climbs too well, is it overmodelled or light on fuel? Etc etc.

BTW, My first climbing trial 190A vs P51B 12 to 22K lead to P51 being superior. 190 was heavier on fuel (75%)and had empty rocket tubes (forgot to take them off) and the lightest gunload, P51 had 50% fuel. 190 had a 1000 feet extra.
At 22K the P51 had the 190 in its gunrange.
So, could that have happened in real life?

[Crumpp]

How did this turn into the FW-190A outclimbs the Spitfire??


That is not what I said nor what happenend in reality.

It could not directly follow the 190 but without a shred of doubt it the Spitfire outclimbed it.

Big Difference.

Crumpp

[Crumpp]

But late war.....the 190A series is outclassed. No more outdiving when P51's are around. Suddenly Spitties stay uncomfortably close in the dive and make a catch when it levels out. That ### P51 climbs too well, is it overmodelled or light on fuel? Etc etc.

Exactly,

When the Spit XIV, Tempest, and P51 have become common the 190A is outclassed.

The P51 and the Tempest were both rough customers.  You might have a chance at a turn fight with them if you are lucky.

Against the Spit XIV the 190A is meat on the table.  It can only dive as a temporary get away.  

Against any Merlin Spit vs. its 190A contemporary the fight is about as even odds as you can get in a WWII fighter match up.  The 190A can afford to saddle up in a close quarters energy fight as long as it doesn't turn.  

Of the pre-Spit XIV models, down low in the 190A's element, IMO the Spit XII holds the best chance because of it roll rate and ability to directly follow in the climb.

Crumpp

[GODO]

MiloMorai, your 190A5 graph is for military power only.

[Angus]

From Izzie:
"In fact no Spitfire could match the FW 190`s level speed either until mid-1944 at all the practical flight altitudes up to ca.7000m, when 150 grade fuel was introduced. There was no Spitfire until then that could produce 351mph at SL, and 415 mph at altitude."

More or less correct, vs the bulk of Spits untill that time when the Griffon Spits arrived.
However, the Mk VIII introduced in 1943 has 363 miles on the deck and some 405 at 20K, top speed at alt being 409. Tome to 20K being 5 minutes.
Spit  IX LF is as fast down low while the IX HF is faster up very high.  So it all depends really.
But the 190 is truly formidable in a certain altitude band, and the LW command utilized that in their normal professional way. No wonder that the first Spit pilots hated the 190's

[bozon]

The La-7 is unperked because of its severe range limitations and poor high alt performance.

common misconception. La7's 20k preformance is good. just not as overwhelming as down in the weeds relatively to other planes.

At a shallower angle and faster speed the than the spit the FW-190 reaches it's "rent free" zone in a sustained climb. If a spit points it's nose DIRECTLY at the FW-190 it will be out climbed because it cannot maintain the same VSI at the same AOA. It has to climb at a different AoA to get the same VSI.

Crumpp, you completly confuse climb angle and AoA, which has nothing to do with each other.

If you add weight and power, the equation changes. Just look at the Spit XIV. Not a whole lot of power in the Griffen 65(+18) compared to the Merlin 66 (+25) was added but a substantitial amount of weight. Not a big loss of manuverability for a substantial gain in wingloading.

The RAF needed speed and more speed. adding HP will give you more speed. adding weight will have very little effect on max speed, therefor putting bigger heavier engine gave you a faster plane but with the same power loading and worse wing loading. All WWII pilots wanted was speed - the rest came in second.

Spit 14 is arguably the best fighter in AH. but since monsters like G10 and La7 are running around free, it should be lightly perked. The perk tag is bad enough.

Ta152 dive ability leaves me wondering about the P47. The 152 is also heavy with no so good level acceleration but superb in a dive. The Jug is nothing to write home about.

Bozon