Author Topic: Ta-152 vs Spit 14  (Read 5998 times)

Offline GScholz

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Ta-152 vs Spit 14
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2004, 10:48:06 PM »
Less climb? How much?
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Offline Karnak

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Ta-152 vs Spit 14
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2004, 10:50:23 PM »
They didn't say.  It is under 5,000ft initial climb now.  I think it is about 4,700 or 4,800ft initial climb.  Still very fast, but not as much as it was.
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Offline GScholz

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Ta-152 vs Spit 14
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2004, 10:52:35 PM »
cc, thx.
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Offline Glasses

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Ta-152 vs Spit 14
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2004, 11:22:59 PM »
...and ,and, and Don't forget El Kurto Tanque

Offline Kweassa

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Ta-152 vs Spit 14
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2004, 11:45:03 PM »
Quote
Yes the 262 is very easy to survive in, but if your SA is bad you can still get shot down, that was my point. In the Spit14 you must never dive after a fleeing enemy unless he flies a slower plane AND there are no other cons that can effect an intercept on you.


 With no disrespect, to sum it up you're flying it "timidly". If you ever have any kind of success with it is because of your own management skills, which, would essentially be same with all aircraft types.

 A lil' joke, but it's like Widewing, always saying how dangerous a SBD Dauntless is.. always saying how much fighters he kills with it. So, Widewing himself can manage something like a 10 K/D with the SBD. So is the SBD a perk material?

 The whole point is, the Spit14 requiring THAT MUCH SA in the first place, evidently means its no perk material.

 Take that 3vs1 situation you mentioned. You met a F6F or a F4U, which is by no means a "mainstream" MA fighter. If you met a La-7 and a N1K2 on deck, and another La-7 doing BnZ passes, honestly dude, do you think you could you have survived?

 Are you that confident? Because, in most of average cases of average people that make up 80% of the arena, they'd say the odds of survival is quite unlikely.

 Now, in that situation another La-7 could survive. A Bf109G-10 might survive. A Fw190D-9 or a P-51D would be harder to survive in if it loses E in the first place, but it would rarely get into that condition in the first place.

 ...

 The problem is not about whether a plane is used "right" or "wrong". In that simple analogy, practically the MA is full of people who don't/can't use planes the right way. They are the norm, the mass, and the basis which "overuse" is to be determined upon.

 Remember - it's because most average flyers don't have enough skill to stay alive in other planes, is why the "BigFour" planes are overused in the first place!

 So, likewise, the Spit14 as an MA plane, should also be assumed that a more or less average pilot is at control.

 And in that case, would it be a more popular plane than the La-7?

 I don't think so.

 ....

 Now, in turn, look at the Bf109G-10 or the P-51D, or the La-7. Those are very powerful planes. If everybody flew these free planes the way you did Scholz, people would want it perked.

 I am willing to bet, that if the Bf109G-10 was a perk plane from the beginning, you would test it out and say the same thing about it as the Spit14, and comment that it deserves a perk.

 But they're not perked. They're free. Some fly it timidly, but others who venture and risk more in the MA environment, also die a lot in it. And despite all that, the La-7 or the P-51D is more likely to survive dangerous situations than the Spit14, due to its raw speed.

 ...

 Again, basically, if a plane like the La-7 is in the arena unperked, then there's no justification in perking a Spit14. And that's the alpha and omega of this discussion.

Offline GScholz

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Ta-152 vs Spit 14
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2004, 12:07:08 AM »
The La-7 is unperked because of its severe range limitations and poor high alt performance.

It is true that the 109G-10 and Spit14 are very close performers, but only in a set multiple plane engagement, say squadron vs. squadron. The simple fact is that the Spit14 is a much better MA plane than the 109G-10. It turns better, can dive faster without compressing, and has a much better gun package for fighter vs. fighter combat.

About flying timidly (I prefer calling it "flying smart" ;)). I enjoy both types of game play, furball and "Survivor MA", which is why I have neither a stellar K/D nor Score (for which I couldn't care less). However in a perk plane you have to fly smart because of the gang-icon, even in the 262. Furball in a perk plane and you'll most likely lose the perks. And if I've understood Hitech right, that's the purpose of the gang-tags.

Against three La-7s I doubt I would survive long in any prop fighter on the deck.

Btw. I'm an advocate for the "Perk Agenda" of perking almost every aircraft in the game with small perk costs.
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Offline GScholz

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Ta-152 vs Spit 14
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2004, 12:14:37 AM »
I think that the bottom line is that any plane that can fly at 450mph, almost turns with a Spit9, has twin Hizookas and .50 cals, great high-speed control, climbs better than a 109G-10 and carries a DT ... must be perked.
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2004, 12:26:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz


Against three La-7s I doubt I would survive long in any prop fighter on the deck.



Weak! ;)

Offline GScholz

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« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2004, 12:34:55 AM »
Haha ;) I can always cherry pick you instead Grun. :D
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Offline moot

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Ta-152 vs Spit 14
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2004, 06:35:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
That said, had you run into the old 56th FG (Ammo, Frenchy, Nomde and the rest), your 152s would have been nursing hind tit in short order. Those guys hoped for that kind of opportunity. A clean, fast moving P-47 at altitude is trouble. 6 to 8 of them, flown by guys who know how to use them, are extremely lethal.



hehe
Ammo would know something about that hypothetical situation.


Frenchy might remember a 1:1 spit14-152 bout where I would come inches from a kill only to lose advantage over and over.
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Offline Angus

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Ta-152 vs Spit 14
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2004, 06:51:14 AM »
From Scholzie:
"I think that the bottom line is that any plane that can fly at 450mph, almost turns with a Spit9, has twin Hizookas and .50 cals, great high-speed control, climbs better than a 109G-10 and carries a DT ... must be perked."

Yes, that is the Performance of the Spit XIV in WW2, with an exception of AH Spit XIV.
It does not turn with a Mk IX. It basically should.
It does not (As far as I know) climb with the G10. It climbs with the G2. It climbs to 20K in more than the stated 5 minutes from WW2.
Many of its enemies are Spit IX's
It's not the best performing Spit variant of WW2.

It's expensive and carries a death tag. Perk it? Yes, IMHO, for it is still a very good aircraft, and you don't want to make Aces High into "Spitties High". But it should not carry a different tag, and it's too expensive.

But that means that all high performing Spitties should be perked, or rather every fighter the British supplied after the autumn of 1943 is a perk plane except the Tiffie?
If any of the following came around:
Spit VIII or IX LF+25 would probably have to be perked as well, as well as XII (low gear), and later XIV's including clipped ones and ones with teardrop canopy.
A funny paradox on the threads, - "Spits were no good", and then "perk most spits cos they are too uber"


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Offline Angus

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Ta-152 vs Spit 14
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2004, 06:52:52 AM »
Oh, look at my signature, - Rall's quote.
That applies to the Spit I vs the 109E. Maybe I should add it?
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Offline Nashwan

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Ta-152 vs Spit 14
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2004, 07:23:48 AM »
Quote
It does not (As far as I know) climb with the G10. It climbs with the G2. It climbs to 20K in more than the stated 5 minutes from WW2.


The prototype, with lower FTH, took 5 mins to 20K. That's the plane that had a low alt climb rate of over 5000 ft/min.

AH's Spit XIV is modelled on the production data, which had higher FTH, climbed at a max of 4700 ft/min, but could sustain it to a greater height.

That had a time to 20k of 4 mins 45 sec.

According to a quick test, the AH Spit XIV averages 230 ft/min less to 20,000ft than the production aircraft.

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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Ta-152 vs Spit 14
« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2004, 07:32:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus

Yes, that is the Performance of the Spit XIV in WW2, with an exception of AH Spit XIV.
It does not turn with a Mk IX. It basically should.



I wonder how could a XIV turn with a Mk IX, when the XIV weights 8500 lbs, the IX weights only 7400 lbs, and their power-to-weight ratio is very similiar, plus the XIV has more drag...?

Kinda like  saying that IX turns just the same with 1100 lbs bombs attached and without. :lol

Offline Crumpp

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Ta-152 vs Spit 14
« Reply #44 on: August 21, 2004, 07:39:45 AM »
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A funny paradox on the threads, - "Spits were no good", and then "perk most spits cos they are too uber"



That is because there is a HUGE difference in the performance's of the Merlin Spits vs Spitfire Mk XIV.  
 

Quote
Spit VIII or IX LF+25 would probably have to be perked as well, as well as XII (low gear),


The Spitfire Mk XII maybe.  The Spit VIII and the IX LF (+25) I have to disagree.  Only reason the Spits have such an advantage in AH is because of the climb physics modeling.  Their zoom climbs are way too good and they don't pay "rent" in the sustained climb like they should.  With the exception of the Spitfire Mk XII/XIV, all of the Merlin powered spits sustained climb was steep and slow.


Quote
Pitch attitude is not the same as angle of attack. Angle of attack is what really matters.


 http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/aoa.html#sec-power-attitude-performance

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The dividing line between the mushing regime and the front side of the power curve is the highest point on the power curve. At this point, the airplane can fly with the minimal amount of dissipation; this is the “low-rent district”. The airspeed where this occurs is called the best-rate-of-climb airspeed and denoted VY.7


http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/energy.html

This lends all Aircraft in AH an artificial increase in roll rate.  Adding rudder in a roll is a bad thing.  This helps the spits out tremendously with their rather poor roll rate. Yawing in a roll is a bad thing.  At a minimum you increase your roll times and mush your speed.

Quote
Here’s what had happened: her right foot had gotten tired, so she just removed it from the pedal --- all at once. This produced a sudden yaw to the left. Naturally the left wing dropped, so she applied full right aileron. The nose was dropping, too, so she pulled back sharply on the yoke. The next thing anybody knew, we were upside down.

I took the controls and rolled the plane right-side-up. We lost about 500 feet of altitude during the maneuver. The student asked “What was THAT?” and I said “That was a pretty nice snap roll”.


http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/snaps.html

Crumpp