Furballers -vs- Timid Pilots

[Furious]

Originally posted by g00b
Yah, I forgot about assists. Not sure if they should count...

g00b

I often spend a good deal of effort/time fighting a guy only to have him finished off by a someone who just showed up.

[Furious]

Tour 57 using my method and a sampling of folks.

furious:  (101+26+29)/11.75= 13.27 fights per hour or 1 fight every 4.52 min on average
stang:  (393+71+46)/38=13.42 fights per hour or 1 fight every 4.47 min on average
leviathn:  (64+8+14)/4.5=19.11  fights per hour or 1 fight every 3.14 min on average
jb42:  (378+108+149)/64=9.92 fights per hour or 1 fight every 9.07 minutes on average
cobra412:  (628+101+122)/79=10.77 fights per hour or 1 fight every 5.57 minutes on average
urchin: (177+38+25)/21=11.43 fights per hour or 1 fight every 5.25 min on average
manetmp:  (1134+157+301)/89.5=17.79 fights per hour or 1 fight every 3.37 min on average.


What does all this tell us?  Nothing.  There is no way to guage how much fun someone is having by looking at scores.  And fun is all that matters.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by ccvi

low means more timid flying
(or longer flights to the fight)

Or the time the player flies.  I only fly after 12:30am PST and at those times it sometimes is very hard to find a fight.  One of the reasons why I really don't play anymore.


ack-ack

[sax]

Originally posted by Zazen13
You can learn more by repeated and refined success in various situations as by any failure.

Zazen

From playing both sides I say you are dead wrong.

Before the TAS had players like Slappy or Mars we existed on play to survive---as the MA changed we quickly learned and are still learning that the only true skill that can carry over into other styles is getting in the middle and hanging out till your back in the tower.
Once you get good enuf at that you can fly any style with as much or more success as any of the so called marquis e/b&z players if yu want to.
Plain and simple yu gotta spend your time in the tower to be able to stay outta the tower if yu want to play agressive.

[Midnight]

Originally posted by g00b
yah... and upping from a front line field = more aggressive right? Not necessarily smarter, but more aggressive.

So the guy upping at a vultched field is more aggressive? I'd call that either bull-headed or just plain stupid.

[Midnight]

Originally posted by g00b
... One does not spend 10 minutes climbing out in a P-51 to go fly "aggressive" in a furball.

One DOES up a Spit or LaLa and head straight into the fray.

Which style is more aggressive?

Note: I am not including skill or intelligence, only the urge to fight as much as possible.

I guess we need to define aggressiveness:

Inclined to behave in an actively hostile fashion. Assertive, bold, and energetic.

What kind of garbage is that?

Someone who flies 2 minutes to a furball and is shot down within 2 minutes isn't doing any more fighting than a P-51 that flies 10 minutes before fighting and then fights for 10 minutes after that.

Any Turn fighter plane (Spit, La7, N1K, KI84, Hurricane, etc) can start fighting as soon as it is wheels up. If a P-51 expects to last more than 30 seconds, it has to fly long enough to get altitude and speed (aka E)

[RTSigma]

Aggressiveness isn't time based. Its all about what that pilot does in a fight, such as continuing pursuit, using ACM to down multiple enemies, and going out of his way to ensure his target is destroyed.

[Herr Milde]

Newbe history enthusiast:
Jumps in, starts engine, watches the prop turn over and listens to the awesome sound of a powerful engine coming to life. Feels the goosebumps of about to engage in a battle to defend the homeland. Technology is everything.  Life is finite. The choice is clear, a faster plane and bigger guns are not only better, but way more awesome. There is a reason late war planes were designed to B&Z. Its more effective at accomplishing historical objectives.

Newbe gamer:
Jumps in, starts engine, heads straight for the furball. The graphics are merely in the way. Target is everything. The choice is clear, mastering the dogfight gives glory, the turnfighter is the medium.

I know from experince, it takes a lot to become more aggressive when you are really into re-living a moment in history and take your life seriously.

Only lately have I stooped so low as to practice turfighting. And althought its gamey, I admit it is a real blast and does improve your skill vastly.

But every once in a while I hope I will still have the need to jump into a cool technical marvel that is fast, has big guns, and can manouver at high speed, and heck, maybe even joust with a turnfighter.

RitteR

[dtango]

RTSigma Wrote:
Aggressiveness isn't time based. Its all about what that pilot does in a fight, such as continuing pursuit, using ACM to down multiple enemies, and going out of his way to ensure his target is destroyed.

Well said RTSigma.

Dipstick- As promised here's a couple of film snippets I have of some 412th encounters over the last couple of months.  I ask that folks view the films before making a generalized statement that the 412th is timid.

These 4 films are from four separate 412th squad nights:
http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/412thfilm.ahf (1.6MB)

http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/film23_0000.ahf (2.8MB)

http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/412thfilm2.ahf (3.0MB)

http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/film44_0630.ahf (2.3MB)

Here are 2 film snips of some 412th non-squadnight flying:
http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/film12_0305.ahf (3.5MB) (Cobra412+Tango)

http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/film39.ahf (4.1MB) (SkatSr, Notar, CavemanJ, Tango)

Here's a film snip of a fun fight I had:
http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/bfm-p38s-190.ahf

...and Here's a film of 3v3 the 412th had with the JB's:
http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/412thJB.ahf (3.0MB)

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[dtango]

Ritter:

Turnfighting, B&Z, energy fighting etc. are all generalized ways of trying to describe air combat techniques.  (Personally I prefer Shaw's "angles" vs. "energy" tactics as a better categorization.)

The point however is that they are merely categorizations and in reality the distinction is much more blurred than that.  (Hopefully the above films demonstrate that - when is an angles fight and energy fight and when is an energy fight an angles fight?- kind of hard to tell infact some of the distinction is only relative to whichever planes are matched up.)

My suggestion is not to box yourself into being an only angles tactician or only energy tactician.  You should learn to be proficient in both no matter what plane you fly because as Col. John Boyd postulated, it really comes down to getting inside your opponents decision loop and having the full repertoire will give you a higher probability of doing that.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by dtango
Well said RTSigma.

Dipstick- As promised here's a couple of film snippets I have of some 412th encounters over the last couple of months.  I ask that folks view the films before making a generalized statement that the 412th is timid.

These 4 films are from four separate 412th squad nights:
http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/412thfilm.ahf (1.6MB)

http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/film23_0000.ahf (2.8MB)

http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/412thfilm2.ahf (3.0MB)

http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/film44_0630.ahf (2.3MB)

Here are 2 film snips of some 412th non-squadnight flying:
http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/film12_0305.ahf (3.5MB) (Cobra412+Tango)

http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/film39.ahf (4.1MB) (SkatSr, Notar, CavemanJ, Tango)

Here's a film snip of a fun fight I had:
http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/bfm-p38s-190.ahf

...and Here's a film of 3v3 the 412th had with the JB's:
http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/412thJB.ahf (3.0MB)

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

It's been my experience as of late that the 412th are willing to mix it up.  Some of the best fights I've had in a long time were the ones I had with Cobra412 the other night.  


ack-ack

[Murdr]

Originally posted by Furious
What does all this tell us?  Nothing.  There is no way to guage how much fun someone is having by looking at scores.  And fun is all that matters.

True, but that is an interesting manipulation of statistics.  Supposedly I find a fight every 4:59 (excluded 54 mins of memorial flight time this tour).  No wonder I get impatient beyond 7-8 minutes

But like Furious said, it doesnt guage fun.  Ive winged with former squadies that didnt kill a third as often as I, but could manage to stay alive.  They'd not fair well with this formula, but were not timid, and did have fun.

No doubt there are some timid flyers out there.  The frustrating co-alt dots that run before they get in con range, or dive away as soon as they get into con range.  Plus the other multiple examples in this thread.  One small suggestion Id make before you pass that 'timid' judgment, is to reasses your own SA first.  By that I mean SA is naturally friendly blind.  Whatever is not a threat to you is low priority, however when you switch that to the enemies POV, those multiple low priority items become major attention grabbers.  I only mention this because so often when Ive chatted with nme's, they have no clue that they were actually part of a multi v. 1, and question your 'timidness'

[RTSigma]

Screw chicks man, I just wanna dance.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by nopoop
The timid ones that orbit above the fight are the easiest to track. They take a few of forms....

...The one that waits until a certain con has his hands full, swoops down at the right moment to pluck him and ...."zooms".

Maybe Sir would prefer it if said pilot were to book an appointment for a more convenient time?

Good thread - interesting to see it surface again.

Slapshot/Stang - just found an old film with Stang and me both flying for the rooks in the same group engagement. I might even post it. But for now, all I've got to say is ---> Poor Stang :lol and a very smug ->

[beet1e]

Originally posted by nopoop
The timid ones that orbit above the fight are the easiest to track. They take a few of forms....

...The one that waits until a certain con has his hands full, swoops down at the right moment to pluck him and ...."zooms".

Maybe Sir would prefer it if said pilot were to book an appointment for a more convenient time?

Good thread - interesting to see it surface again.

Slapshot/Stang - just found an old film with Stang and me both flying for the rooks in the same group engagement. I might even post it. But for now, all I've got to say is ---> Poor Stang :lol and a very smug ->