Draining E in turns

[Crumpp]

So, when Quill's Spitfire overhauled Faber's 190, the 190 was already running on more boost than it could take?

Same boost pressure as a rated motor will develop a lot less horsepower.  Fuel feed and spark development play a large role in horsepower development.  Just look at the SU pump on the Spitfire Mk IX test.  

Fabers derated motor developed around 100 hp less than a rated motor.  Wanna see the power graph??

Crumpp

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Crumpp
I remember reading that Faber's normal A/C was in maintenance and he took an excess fighter that morning.
 

Faber was the Adjutant of III./JG2 and his a/c was marked as it should have been:



Must have been a quicky application of the Adj. markings.


Does using words like "power egg" make you more intelligent Crumpp?

[Angus]

Achtung, Kraftei!!!


What do you mean?

[Charge]

Julius Meimberg stated in his book that at the time 190 was introduced (in JG2), there was a rumour about that the engine was derated, because they did not want the Brits to discover the true potential of 190 just yet (of course there could have been other reasons as stated becore). IIRC a few higher ranking officers used the maximum power despite that.

Maybe Fabers FW was not derated after all as Meimberg wrote that the Brits became fully aware of FWs potential after Faber incident?

-C+

[Crumpp]

Does using words like "power egg" make you more intelligent Crumpp?

That's the correct term milo.  The engine, cowling, propeller, etc.. all came as one bolt on piece.  It took very little time to completely swap engines.  Sort of like a NASCAR.  You should be familiar with that.

As Gripen said. Faber's 190 was derated, like all 190s at the time.

Not all FW-190's were derated at the time.  The derating had nothing to do with the Spitfire or the RAF.  It was a logistical management tool to extend the service life of motors and conserve high grade avaition fuel.

You will find derated motors throughout the war.

Faber was the Adjutant of III./JG2 and his a/c was marked as it should have been:

Your correct Milo.  I do remember reading that his aircraft had problems and was in maintenance shortly before his flight.  Whether that is the reason for the "derated" motor I don't know.  It could simply be that there were not any rated motors available.  The BMW-801 series motor were still experiencing teething troubles and reliability was pretty low.  The Gruppe Adjutant is not the most likely to encounter the enemy in the Gruppe.  So if I had to dole out airframes based on priority, he would be towards the bottom of the list.

Crumpp

[MiloMorai]

How does one derate a propeller or even a cowling, Crumpp?

Did you not tell me that the LW was not short of avgas? And, they did not even have to transport it by boat like they had to do for Sicily and NA.

Talking at cross purposes Crumpp. If the 801 was experienceing problems at that time, then it is logical to derate all of them.

Examples of derated motors used thoughout the war are..........


Werner Schroer as Adj of I./JG27 seems to have flown and scored. (4 ea in 2 weeks)

8. 30.5.1942 14:05 P-40 Stab I./JG 27 E Bir Hacheim
9. 10.6.1942 7:49 P-40    Stab I./JG 27 5km W Bir Hacheim
10. 15.6.1942 18:06 P-40 Stab I./JG 27    NW El Adem
11. 15.6.1942 18:11 P-40 Stab I./JG 27    NW El Adem

[Angus]

This is something:
"That's the correct term milo. The engine, cowling, propeller, etc.. all came as one bolt on piece. It took very little time to completely swap engines. Sort of like a NASCAR. You should be familiar with that. "
Now that's what I'd call a clever design! Didn't know that one.
The 109 was pretty clever too, i.e. the possibility to remove the wings without the UC, etc, - it's engine was also quite accessible.

I misunderstood the word "Derated", just plainly took it for "poor performing".
I've heard something about poor performing engins due to wear, most notably the DB (!) actually, but not yet the BMW.

[Crumpp]

If the 801 was experienceing problems at that time, then it is logical to derate all of them.

It did not happen that way Milo.  Militaries, including the Luftwaffe have a rather large support train.  It was their job to rate and derate motors.  It's not a hard thing.

How does one derate a propeller or even a cowling, Crumpp?

Surely your not this dense.

Examples of derated motors used thoughout the war are..........

Look at how well Fabers FW-190 did in the tactical trials.  A derated motor does not mean a useless aircraft.  It just means it does not perform as well as a rated motor would.  It was still good enough.

The 801 series had quite a few teething troubles in the begining.  It was late 1943 before the Germans started getting more than 30-40 hours of life.  The early the timeframe the less engine life an 801 had in it.  The test group in 1941 could barely leave the airfield until JG26's TO came up with rerouting the exhaust on the bottom cylinders AFAIK.  Engine reliability slowly climbed from that point.  It was not the RLM who pushed the FW-190 program.  It was the pilots who flew it.  In fact the RLM almost cancelled the FW-190 on several occasions due to reliability issues.  I believe if Galland had not had such close ties with JG26 and the pilots in the 190 test program it would have been cancelled. By late 1943 the 801 had developed into a reliable powerplant.
 

Crumpp

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Crumpp
It did not happen that way Milo.  Militaries, including the Luftwaffe have a rather large support train.  It was their job to rate and derate motors.  It's not a hard thing.

As you state below, the 801 was not reliable until'late 1943' while Faber's a/c was captured in 1942. Now we know you have extra ordinary powers, so tell us how you would know which engine to derate
 

Surely your not this dense.

Your the one that said the 'power egg' was derated. Any of the components that made up the 'power egg' could be derated giving the 'power egg' a derating. Should have used just plain old 'engine', eh Crumpp.

 

Look at how well Fabers FW-190 did in the tactical trials.  A derated motor does not mean a useless aircraft.  It just means it does not perform as well as a rated motor would.  It was still good enough.

The 801 series had quite a few teething troubles in the begining.  It was late 1943 before the Germans started getting more than 30-40 hours of life.  The early the timeframe the less engine life an 801 had in it.  The test group in 1941 could barely leave the airfield until JG26's TO came up with rerouting the exhaust on the bottom cylinders AFAIK.  Engine reliability slowly climbed from that point.  It was not the RLM who pushed the FW-190 program.  It was the pilots who flew it.  In fact the RLM almost cancelled the FW-190 on several occasions due to reliability issues.  I believe if Galland had not had such close ties with JG26 and the pilots in the 190 test program it would have been cancelled. By late 1943 the 801 had developed into a reliable powerplant.

What does this have to do with answering the question of what other engines, as you claim, were derated during the war?

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Crumpp
I remember reading that Faber's normal A/C was in maintenance and he took an excess fighter that morning.
 

That 190 must have had one heck of a lot of fuel on board to take off in the morning, chase some Bostons and have combat with a Spitfire and land at Pembrey with the sun low on the horizon.

[Crumpp]

As you state below, the 801 was not reliable until'late 1943' while Faber's a/c was captured in 1942. Now we know you have extra ordinary powers, so tell us how you would know which engine to derate

It states in the report Moron, Fabers A3 was derated.

That 190 must have had one heck of a lot of fuel on board to take off in the morning, chase some Bostons and have combat with a Spitfire and land at Pembrey with the sun low on the horizon.

Try reading a reply.  Additionally, If it was the case and Faber signed for a new plane that morning due to his being in maintenance, I am unaware of any policy that a pilot is required to immediately take off and fly around until his is ready.

Your the one that said the 'power egg' was derated. Any of the components that made up the 'power egg' could be derated giving the 'power egg' a derating. Should have used just plain old 'engine', eh Crumpp.

What hair are you splitting?

What does this have to do with answering the question of what other engines, as you claim, were derated during the war?

Milo,

I have copies of numerous allied reports on at least 5 different FW-190's.  Some are derated and some are rated motors.
the Flugzueg-handbuch issues special instructions for rated motors as well.

Crumpp

[MiloMorai]

You having trouble with English Crumpp?. You were the one that said motors, other than the BMW801, were derated.

Thick between the ears Crumpp? The question was NOT wether Faber's a/c had a derated engine but how, with your crystal ball, would you know if a BMW801 needed derating. Dispite you huffing and puffing, at that time, ALL BMW 801 engines were derated.

So can I hire you, for all your hot air will heat my residence this winter.

Actually, Faber would be ASSIGNED a different a/c if his was in maintainance. Yet he landed in his regular assigned a/c in Wales. He flew with, not the Stab, but 7./JG2 that afternoon. You claim the Adj did not fly often so Faber would not be assigned an a/c until it was close to his flight time.


You using a ghost writer for that book Crumpp? Hope so.

[Angus]

OMG, this is almost like a Spit/109 thread now!
Anyway, looking into this again, Crumpp is saying that from the day Faber landed his whatever 190 at Pembrey, it never developed proper power, right?
And Milo is pointing out that it was not any different than other 190's of the same squadron, right?
Both are pointing out that the BMW at that time had a very short lifespan, right?
You can as far as I see both be correct.

So, this one bothers me.
Faber's 190 got tested untill it broke.
Would it not be normal to conclude that it's inital performance (untill it started giving trouble) would give a good account of a typical operable 190 performance at the time?

[Nashwan]

Faber's 190 got tested untill it broke.
Would it not be normal to conclude that it's inital performance (untill it started giving trouble) would give a good account of a typical operable 190 performance at the time?

Or even above. The British removed the restrictions, in effect overboosting the engine.

The problem with the early tests of Faber's aircraft is that the British seem to have mixed up the engine settings they were using.

This, for example, is what the RAE reported for climb rate at 1.35 ata, 2450 rpm:



The RAE test is in purple. The A3 data comes from a chart Crumpp posted, the A5 I can't remember where I got the graph, but possibly Crumpp as well.

The RAE's data doesn't fit. Whilst they claim 2450 rpm, 1.35 ata, it seems to me the low gear figures (up to 8,000ft) are 1.35 ata, 2450 rpm, but the high gear figure (above 8000 ft) must be for 1.42 ata, 2700 rpm, yet the RAE specifically say 1.35 ata, 2450 rpm for both.

Personally, I take the initial tests of Faber's 190 with a pinch of salt, because I don't think it was tested at the settings the AFDU/RAE thought they were using. The later figures should be better, after they had a chance to get to know the aircraft.

I have copies of numerous allied reports on at least 5 different FW-190's. Some are derated and some are rated motors.
the Flugzueg-handbuch issues special instructions for rated motors as well.

Which A subtypes? AFAIK, derating was no longer standard from some time during A4 production. I believe the British also deliberately ignored some ratings to run the captured aircraft at settings they thought would be common in the future.

[MiloMorai]

No Angus, I see Crumpp saying, OK this engine for the A-3 will be derated , this next one as well but not the next one........ and so on and so on and so on


Btw, the cockpit of Faber's a/c is suppose to be in an English or Welsh museum.