Author Topic: A FM question/observation... (Read 745 times)

humble · « **on:** August 25, 2004, 02:02:00 PM »

I liked the "new" FM alot during the beta and after flying for a week or so now like it even more...I've got one question however.

I've noticed a tendency for the various planes to "fall thru the floor" under certain circumstances. Basically they "feel" like they are literally falling. I've actually never had it happen to me in a furball...but have had it happen on "wingovers" etc when I'm over a buff etc...lawn darted a pony setting up a pass on a goon over the weekend...ARGGHH:eek:

My question is really related to accelerated stalls etc...normally if you "unload' the stick you can easily recover. Here it seems like there is no lift under certain circumstances yet visually I'm in a "nose down" attitude to some degree with the plane "mushing" tremendously and pancaking. I've also seen others experience it in low furballs...it's not a loss of controlled flight in any sense I'm used to as much as a significantly greater sink rate under certain conditions. Curious if those real pilots with acrobatics experience consider this a more accurate representation or not??

NoBaddy · « **Reply #1 on:** August 25, 2004, 03:02:54 PM »

I've been experiencing the same thing. Figured it was my stick (even though its only a few weeks old). I'm on the bottom side of a loop doing about 230 to 250, I pull the stick and bang...I'm in a spin.

JB73 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 25, 2004, 03:41:20 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by NoBaddy
I've been experiencing the same thing. Figured it was my stick (even though its only a few weeks old). I'm on the bottom side of a loop doing about 230 to 250, I pull the stick and bang...I'm in a spin.

im having the same problem.

i have been playing with the stick setting / deadbands, but that only hinders my performance.

with the way i have it set now (rarely stall over) a 109g10 at 150mph can turn inside my 109g2.

i guess im just having alot of troubles adapting.

SlapShot · « **Reply #3 on:** August 25, 2004, 04:00:43 PM »

Don't know if its just me or it's somewhat related, but I am finding that I have to recalibrate my stick multiple times while in the game.

I calibrate and stick movement seems smooth and fine. Fly along for awhile or replane and the next thing I know, any stick movement becomes over exagerated and bouncy.

Howitzer · « **Reply #4 on:** August 25, 2004, 04:25:16 PM »

I've not recalibrated, but it seems bouncy to me as well. Especially the 109s and spits. I can't seem to hold the nose still long enough to release any shots on the target. I also can't seem to keep a 109 in a flat turn at all (this could be my flying ability though LOL)

CPR · « **Reply #5 on:** August 25, 2004, 04:56:03 PM »

Slapshot, I've noticed the same thing. Having to recalibrate more frequently to get the bounce out out a dive. Hard to line up on a shot when it looks like you need new shocks.

Krusty · « **Reply #6 on:** August 25, 2004, 05:13:28 PM »

I think the original post described a situation that has to do with the stick not the FM.

I say this because I have a REALLY crappy Logitech stick. Many of you know what that means. When it's acting up (read: 95% of the time) I can't pull smooth moves on ANY axis, and I *WILL* stall/spin out at 350 with the slightest of pulls in any direction.

It's a crappy stick. It's a hint you might have a Logitech.

Not *necessarily* the FM, mind you, but not necessarily excluding it either.

LtPillur · « **Reply #7 on:** August 25, 2004, 05:34:09 PM »

Whew!! I thought I couldn't fly anymore! yes it has happened to me opn more than one occasion. I feel better. I used to be able to fly and not shoot. I thougth i lost everything:)

The spinning at the top of a loop has occured in several different planes so I'm suspecting modeling or my stick is screwed. Or maybe even both.
Peace
Pillur

NoBaddy · « **Reply #8 on:** August 25, 2004, 05:36:39 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
I think the original post described a situation that has to do with the stick not the FM.

I say this because I have a REALLY crappy Logitech stick. Many of you know what that means. When it's acting up (read: 95% of the time) I can't pull smooth moves on ANY axis, and I *WILL* stall/spin out at 350 with the slightest of pulls in any direction.

It's a crappy stick. It's a hint you might have a Logitech.

Not *necessarily* the FM, mind you, but not necessarily excluding it either.

As Homer would say..."D'oh!". Same thing with my Thrustmaster.

humble · « **Reply #9 on:** August 25, 2004, 05:41:33 PM »

What I'm describing is not a spin issue...I almost never spin out except on purpose. However I can see how this would lead to a "flat spin" as described in 38/mossie/110 elsewhere. I've noticed that once the plane is on the "edge" of the flight envelope your coming out with tremendous sink compared to AH1 in the vertical. It seems like the plane is picking up speed without generating any lift...any back pressure on the stick only locks you up in an accelerated stall (which is totally correct with a high AoA) but visually I feel like I'm nose down. One of the leading causes of low altitude accidents is failure to recover from an unusual attitude (primarily due to wake turbulance or microburst) where the pilot fails to unload the airplane (worst example was the 737 in pittsburgh...full stall for over a minute at well over 200mph). Anyway based on my limited experience the "sink rate" feels excessive.

Now this would relate to some of the stuff posted assuming that the FM is recreating "buffeting" at the edge of controlled flight. So far I'm "recovering" my throttling back, which seems to help minimize the sink. Since I'm not stalled or spinning it seems a bit "wrong" somehow...but again I've got no real world acrobatic experience and I dont think my CFI's up to be playing with his 172 to work this one out:)

Redd · « **Reply #10 on:** August 25, 2004, 06:32:34 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by humble
What I'm describing is not a spin issue...I almost never spin out except on purpose. However I can see how this would lead to a "flat spin" as described in 38/mossie/110 elsewhere. I've noticed that once the plane is on the "edge" of the flight envelope your coming out with tremendous sink compared to AH1 in the vertical. It seems like the plane is picking up speed without generating any lift...any back pressure on the stick only locks you up in an accelerated stall (which is totally correct with a high AoA) but visually I feel like I'm nose down. One of the leading causes of low altitude accidents is failure to recover from an unusual attitude (primarily due to wake turbulance or microburst) where the pilot fails to unload the airplane (worst example was the 737 in pittsburgh...full stall for over a minute at well over 200mph). Anyway based on my limited experience the "sink rate" feels excessive.

Now this would relate to some of the stuff posted assuming that the FM is recreating "buffeting" at the edge of controlled flight. So far I'm "recovering" my throttling back, which seems to help minimize the sink. Since I'm not stalled or spinning it seems a bit "wrong" somehow...but again I've got no real world acrobatic experience and I dont think my CFI's up to be playing with his 172 to work this one out:)

Think I know what you mean Humble. The planes generally feel heavier when you are close to the ground don't they. I remember this feeling strongly in beta - fighting close to the ground I ploughed in a number of times. You can't pull out quite as quickly as in AH1 , it's like momentum is taking you down, when you are trying to take you up. - if you know what I mean.

I think you get used to it, but I am still more careful in very low turnfights than I used to be.

It seems to me , it gives you a better feeling of the weight of these things, but having never flown one, I have no idea of which FM is more realistic.

Zazen13 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 25, 2004, 06:35:31 PM »

Yea, I've noticed the same thing, especially in heavier planes like the P47D40 and F6f near the ground.

FTndr · « **Reply #12 on:** August 25, 2004, 07:14:39 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by humble
It seems like the plane is picking up speed without generating any lift...any back pressure on the stick only locks you up in an accelerated stall (which is totally correct with a high AoA) but visually I feel like I'm nose down.

Lift is not generated unless you are within the limits (+/-) of a wings designed AoA. (have no idea how this is modeled) You can be in a "stall" at any airspeed and any attitude. Pulling only exasperates the situation... while not pushing over hard or long enough will have the same result. All the while gravity is playing it's little trick on you and dragging you down

::::snip::::

Since I'm not stalled or spinning it seems a bit "wrong" somehow...

A spin will NOT occur if you have the "ball" centered while in the stall. You will simply fall from the sky like a brick. See above for stall info, but basically you could be right with the modeling or you could NOT be "Breaking" the stall in order to regain the control need to pull out.

I flew some aerobatics in college while earning my ratings and certificates. I've experienced (as I'm sure most pilots who have flown aerobatics has at one point or another) the stall that you are talking about. On the back side of a loop I got to anxious to get to the hammerhead and acc. stalled.

My instructor basically laughed at me as I fell damn near a thousand feet wonder why the airplane wouldn't go where I was wanting it to go unitil I full broke the stall and was able to get the nose back above the horizon !!!

So I guess the bottom line is it may be the modeling... . or it may be VERY good modeling in that it's not letting you recover until you completely recover from the stall.

humble · « **Reply #13 on:** August 25, 2004, 07:57:03 PM »

FTndr....

Thanks...my only question is regarding orientation...visually I'm in a nose down situation with reasonable speed (and no stall horn) auditorily the "wind" noise is increasing...stick back pressure should initiate a pull out...yet it "feels" like I'm falling straight down...

assuming that I'm actually in a full stall to initiate the event then as I leave the airframe unloaded I'd assume that as soon as airspeed and AoA enabled flight I've "recovered"...when you fell out of the hammerhead I'd assume "controlled flight" started with a nose down attitude as soon as airspeed reached the required minimium. I know in RL a major issue in unusual attitude recovery is "restalling" the bird...anyway thanks for the insight...

hitech · « **Reply #14 on:** August 26, 2004, 09:24:22 AM »

Humble can you try get a film of the condition you are seeing?

HiTech