No distinctive icon for perk planes!!

[Soda]

JAB,
  I disagree.  If icons were unique I think you'd get a more "cookie-cutter" approach to fights.  As it is, some aircraft in the MA benefit from the presence of more powerful brethern.  It buys them some extra room to work effectively and giving them unique icons would damage them. Just think seeing a 190, 109, or F4U's, you don't know exactly what you have as compared to a C202/C205 where you can apply specific tactics based on icon (the C202 and C205 are very different). It's not the more powerful aircraft gaining benefit, it's typically the less powerful ones, which gives them a fighting chance.  It would certainly change how you would have to approach combat knowing that you might have a "sleeper" aircraft mixed in or you might only be facing the least capable variant... the unique icon method would lead to "selecting targets in order of capability" vs. just having to deal with the one that's "there" and adapt your own fight to suit what you learn about your opponent (his aircraft, his skill in it, and his knowledge of ACM).

I know that when I fly the non-D9 190's (frequently) I use every asset I have and that includes making people think I'm a D9.  It's MA nature to make that assumption and I use that to my advantage.

-Soda

[rabbidrabbit]

i'm with Soda...  it's more interesting and realistic to not be able to tell what type of bird it is until one can actually clearly see it.

[Zwerg]

I vote for individual icons for every type. Like it is now we can identify from far out a C202/C205, an F4F/F6F/FM2, but not a 109F4/109G10.
It 's difficult enough to handle the mixed bag in the MA. By the way: In the real world the opponents knew what type of aircraft the other side had at a given time (except short periods when new types were introduced).

mofa

PS: I fly LW.

[Edbert]

Soda and rabbit, I agree with you that the vagueness adds to the game, but if the icons are going to be vague then why have some planes like the Lavochkins and Maachis give specific IDs? How do you feel about some perk rides violating the generic ID (like spit14 and F4U-4) when others do not (F4U1-C)?

I like the vaguenesses too, but also think that if you get within D500 or so they should give full disclosure. Once we get a bunch of skins into this game it will be nearly impossible to tell some rides apart, no matter how close you get.

[Soda]

Originally posted by Zwerg

It 's difficult enough to handle the mixed bag in the MA. By the way: In the real world the opponents knew what type of aircraft the other side had at a given time (except short periods when new types were introduced).

I do think it makes the MA more difficult, I don't agree that there were limited aircraft they had to deal with.  I bet the LW in 44 faced numerous aircraft, plus many sub-variants, so had exactly the problems that generic icons would give (they had it worse).

A graduated icon system would be interesting though, that way you'd be able to plan your fight after you were close enough to identify the aircraft.  I'm sure the pilots had training in that but our graphics levels don't really allow that yet.  I'd hate to see a system where people would pick on the weaklings and immediately run from any top-rung aircraft.  I think the generic icons do a pretty good job of leaving some "unknown" in the game.

-Soda

[rabbidrabbit]

Originally posted by Edbert MOL
Soda and rabbit, I agree with you that the vagueness adds to the game, but if the icons are going to be vague then why have some planes like the Lavochkins and Maachis give specific IDs? How do you feel about some perk rides violating the generic ID (like spit14 and F4U-4) when others do not (F4U1-C)?

I like the vaguenesses too, but also think that if you get within D500 or so they should give full disclosure. Once we get a bunch of skins into this game it will be nearly impossible to tell some rides apart, no matter how close you get.

For what its worth.. I agree with you.  Realistic ID ranges would make the more immersive and interesting.

[Soda]

Originally posted by Edbert MOL
Soda and rabbit, I agree with you that the vagueness adds to the game.....

I would make it as generic as possible and include the low-mid perks in there.  I mean, the 190's, P51's don't give away which model, why does the La5/7?  I'd include the Spit14, F4U-4 in generic icons too, that is part of the reason they have a price to them. Generally those rides don't have massive performance edges, it's the combination of abilities that's made them perked, and this would just be something else that you'd get when you paid the perk price.  I bet you'd see a lot more perk use that way, as it is now most people just save up their perks until they get to a 262 which makes it worthwhile.  If you take up a SpitXIV you are just asking to get chased down by every La7/P51/190D9 within a sector (and once one slows you down, the horde of SpitV/IX's jump on you).  The Me163 and 262 don't really need generic icons (they don't look like anything else anyway) so leave them as is.

I'd have maybe made the "full disclosure" at D1.0 and remain until such time as the aircraft leaves icon range.  If it came back it would remain un-identified again until close.  That way people could extend but remain identified unless they actually exited an area.

-Soda

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Soda
I'd have maybe made the "full disclosure" at D1.0 and remain until such time as the aircraft leaves icon range.  If it came back it would remain un-identified again until close.  That way people could extend but remain identified unless they actually exited an area.

No need to do that or make the programming more complicated.  If it leaveas the specific icon range it loses the specific icon.  In real life tracking a con didn't include a permanent marker on what type it was once it got too far away tp ID the specific version.  Leave that aspect of SA to the player as well.

Think of it this way.  You bounce some Ki-67s in your F4U-4, but zoom 1000 yards up before he finds you.  He never saw what you were, why should an icon now tell him?

[Soda]

The "persistent" icon idea simply was an aid for people who struggled with views (it would help them re-acquire), would help differentiate aircraft (since we have limited schemes in AH), and would counter-balance some of the initial advantage perk-aircraft would get (once revealed they'd be trackable).  It would make it tougher for guys to "hide" in furballs once they were discovered. I'm not really stuck that hard on the idea though.... it was a bit of a handicapping idea or compromise for the average player.

I mean, having the current 109 icon represent all 109's, is it a big issue in the MA?  I know I have to respect each one I encounter as if it is the "best" though the basic characteristics/limitations of each 109 are much the same.  Sure, some are faster, some hit harder, but overall I adapt my gameplan to whatever the enemy reacts to.  That merge and first turn or two set the stage and tell me what I generally need to know about the aircraft I'm facing.  I can get more specific and agressive in my maneuvering as I learn more about the opponent.

-Soda

[Buzzz]

Originally posted by Soda
I do think it makes the MA more difficult, I don't agree that there were limited aircraft they had to deal with.  I bet the LW in 44 faced numerous aircraft, plus many sub-variants, so had exactly the problems that generic icons would give (they had it worse).

-Soda

Quite right Soda.  

Real pilots mostly trained using black silhouettes drawn on cardboard to learn recognition of enemy planes.  Add to that a 400mph+ closing speed and I don't see how anyone could distinguish between most varients of different aircraft.  They might have had "intel" of what enemy pilots were "supposed" to be flying in a particular area.  But in most cases all they knew for sure was what general type it was even when they were jousting with one.  

Why not use this same silhouette criteria (real world information) to decide this issue... like the FW D9 is distinctive due to it's inline engine but all the FW A's look pretty much alike and so on.  After all, this is supposed to be somewhat of simulation right?

So far as the skins go... don't you only see the skins that you select and everyone else just sees the ones that they select?  If this is the case it seems easy to pick skins that are distinctive for each varient and memorize the ones you have selected.  This would make it EASIER to tell everything apart at close range.  The new skins in fact make it where you don't need specific labels because you can see which skin it is from 400 out.  (Like in my current setup, if it has D-Day stripes then it's a Spit 9er.)

-Buzzz

[J_A_B]

"I bet the LW in 44 faced numerous aircraft, plus many sub-variants, so had exactly the problems that generic icons would give (they had it worse). "


Problem is--this isn't 1944.

1944 was 60 years ago.   It's  done.   It's past.   It's gone.  It bears little/nothing in common with the MA.  Are you trying to re-live the past?  Are you tying to pretend to be a WW2 fighter pilot?

It's pretty obvious that the MA is not a re-creation of any real war, past or present.  Therefore trying to justify an action in the MA based on what happened in some past war is illogical.  I for one don't particularly care about WW2 when I log into the MA.....I care about the here and now.   I like air combat between WW2-era fighters because it is the most balanced era for "fun"  A2A combat.  WW1 planes are just too slow and Post-WW2 jets are too fast.  I have NO interest whatsoever in trying to perfectly re-create actual WW2 conditions.   When I want a dose of WW2 I can read a book and get the stories from the people who were actually there....no need to play make-believe.


In short....I don't view "hiding" behind an overly generic ICON to make for good gameplay.  Unless, of course, you feel that it's somehow rewarding to defeat people who can't even tell what you're flying (which is lame in my mind).  I WANT people to know what I'm flying.  I WANT to know what the other guy is flying.  I WANT both myself and the other guy to know what tactics to use and how to fight.  I want a contest between pilots, not a silly "surprise" game of "Well I look like I'm in unit X but I'm really in unit Y with different abilities".   That just isn't good gameplay.  That makes things random and annoying.   I don't much like random and annoying.


Personal preference of course.   The people who want to re-live the past will likely be happier once the "TOD" arena is available.....and maybe then such people will finally stop trying to pretend the MA is something it isn't.


J_A_B

[Buzzz]

Originally posted by J_A_B
"I bet the LW in 44 faced numerous aircraft, plus many sub-variants, so had exactly the problems that generic icons would give (they had it worse). "


Problem is--this isn't 1944.

1944 was 60 years ago.   It's  done.   It's past.   It's gone.  It bears little/nothing in common with the MA.  Are you trying to re-live the past?  Are you tying to pretend to be a WW2 fighter pilot?


J_A_B

Well... if you look at the page http://www.hitechcreations.com it says right under the Aces High logo "Welcome to the Internet's Premier WW2 Combat Experience".  That's how the people that created the game are choosing to describe and market it.  It's intended to be recreation of a WW2 combat experience by design, form, and function and it's clearly labeled as such.

It's alright to look at it as strictly a "video game".  It is that.  But if others like to actually show some imagination and get something more out of it, then that should be alright too.  We all pay the same price.  Nothing wrong with a getting a little extra value for your money.

-Buzzz

[ALF]

Originally posted by J_A_B
In short....I don't view "hiding" behind an overly generic ICON to make for good gameplay.  Unless, of course, you feel that it's somehow rewarding to defeat people who can't even tell what you're flying (which is lame in my mind).  I WANT people to know what I'm flying.  I WANT to know what the other guy is flying.  I WANT both myself and the other guy to know what tactics to use and how to fight.  I want a contest between pilots, not a silly "surprise" game of "Well I look like I'm in unit X but I'm really in unit Y with different abilities".   That just isn't good gameplay.  That makes things random and annoying.   I don't much like random and annoying.
J_A_B

The issue there is that there are those who may want to be able to identify weaker targets.  That happens most often with those who strive more for the best ranking or score, rather than fun.  This is a game, but it tries to give the feeling of WWII combat, and a good part of the thrill of combat is the unknown.  As real pilots had ideas of what their planes did better than particular enemy planes, they didnt have hard numbers, and certainly couldnt look up a chart and know "Im safe, my plane is 10 MPH faster than that model at 5k".  

Its the reason two of your cards are face down in Texas Holdem.....it just isnt much fun to know everything.....till you commit...and are ALL IN.

[Tilt]

I like random and annoying.............

I like not to know who my opponent is............. one challenge is that a noob can take you out because you have over estimated him and he did the dumb but in this case very effective thing.

I like it that he does not know who I am and that he has to get close before he knows exactly what I am flying.............

I dont want him to know how fuel heavy I am or how much ammo I have or how much non visual damage I may have taken.

I like to have to work that stuff out or guess by his tactics or risk based on a hunch.

Randomness brings variety

[Soda]

Originally posted by J_A_B
I don't view "hiding" behind an overly generic ICON to make for good gameplay. Unless, of course, you feel that it's somehow rewarding to defeat people who can't even tell what you're flying

I defeat people using every skill/method/trick I can and that includes my knowledge of the aircraft in AH.  It's a dynamic decision process for how much of my hand to display, and how much I might want to hold back, to get the job done.  If I beat you from an inferior position, be in energy or aircraft, then the victory is all that much the better because I used superior skill/methods.... utilizing your "assumptions" against you is part of that.

In your arguement, why not just include the pilot ID, ammunition counter, fuel remaining, speed, etc in the icon and agree to meet at X location at Y altitiude... they it can be all about beating the "pilot"?  That would take away any remaining uncertainty... oh, I guess that's what the Dueling Arena is all about...

Originally posted by Tilt
I like random and annoying............. Randomness brings variety

Exactly.  You don't quite know what you are facing and learn a little more about the situation the longer you remain in it.  It's a progression of knowledge and dynamic adpation that makes for success.  You need to make quick decisions and employee correct tactics while always planning for the potential worst.  It's those surprises that get your heart racing from time to time.